Speaker 1: Hey, it's Rachel Cook, your Modern mentor.
I'm the founder of Lead Above Noise, where we help leaders
activate high performance, no burnout required, whether
through boot camps, keynote talks,
or pulse checks, we help teams achieve meaningful change if
that's what your organization needs.
Let's talk, and
before we jump into today's episode, just as a reminder,
please leave a review if you can swing it.
It really helps new listeners find the show. Okay.
So today I'm excited to bring you this interview
with Lily Zang.
Lily is an author, speaker,
and consultant in the world
of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
And you might be thinking, well, there are lots
of voices out there on this topic, and you'd be right.
But I'm telling you, Lily brings a fresh take to inclusion
and belonging and how we can better create these experiences
for really everyone in the workplace.
I spent a few moments during this conversation pretty
speechless, and that is a rare thing for me.
Just ask my kids. I learned a ton, and I hope you do too.
So let's get into it. Lily Zang, consultant, strategist,
and author, all of the things around diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
It is such a pleasure
to have you join me on the Modern Mentor Podcast today.
Thank you for being here.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
I am really stoked to have this conversation.
I think it's going to be lots of fun.
Speaker 1: I have been looking forward to this for quite some time.
So, Lily, before we dive in
and there's so much ground I wanna cover with you,
can you just give us kind of the quick backstory around
what brought you to the work that you do today?
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So I think like many DEI practitioners
and folks who end up in the, uh, DEI space, um,
I was quite passionate about leveraging
what I learned from school and my skills
and my passion to building better workplaces for everyone.
I think unlike a lot of DEI practitioners,
I got my start right out of college in, um,
DEI teaching roles basically as an educator, as someone
who delivered this content
and taught folks within, um, higher ed on how to be
a more inclusive leader on how
to design more inclusive workplaces.
And that at this point was about 10 years ago.
And I would characterize my journey in those last 10 years
as a journey from very shallow, very surface level
awareness, building towards
deeper organizational change work.
And so while I got my start just kind
of educating people on, for example, like what is gender?
What is gender 1 0 1, what is race? What is race 1 0 1?
Nowadays I'm doing things like
how can we achieve actual equity and fairness
and inclusion within organizations for everyone?
How can we end discrimination?
How can we create a true meritocracy?
How can we create healthy workplaces?
And how can we use the tools of organizational design,
organizational development, right?
Effective leadership, change management
to achieve these better outcomes for everyone.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. It's quite a journey
and congratulations to you on,
on finding your place in this conversation.
So tell me a little bit about, you know, we,
we are, we're in a moment.
We're always in a moment. Right now we are in 2025.
And, and certainly here in the US we've seen a lot of change
regarding how, how we're talking about DEI, the role
that it's playing in society, in in politics, education,
healthcare, it's everywhere.
Mm-hmm . I would love your kind of your 10,000 foot view.
I mean, what's top of mind for you right now
as you think about what's happening in the space?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I think, um, since you nudged the 10,000,
uh, feet in the air view is really taking
a historical perspective on what's going on.
And when I zoom out to that distance, I actually see this
as the latest pendulum swing in a 60 year
series of cycles.
We've been in this place before.
And when I say this place, I mean the obvious,
which is DEI is under attack, DEI is under retreat, right?
Um, companies and organizations
and, you know, society at large is kind
of feeling this backswing of progress
following the 2020 murder of George Floyd, which drove a,
you know, big frenzy and a big explosion of DEI support.
So yes, right now we are in a backswing,
but when I zoom out, I see this as the latest
cycle in what's been going on for more than half
of a century of, you know, progress being met with backlash,
being met with progress, being met with backlash.
And so what I've been focusing on during this time is not,
is DEI under attack yes or no?
Yeah. The answer is yes.
It's how can we make the most of this moment
to adapt and improve DEI
or whatever we choose to call it, moving forward,
if not DEI, so that the next forward swing
of the pendulum can do more good
and can be more resistant to a wave of backlash,
like the one that we're experiencing.
That's the kind of work that I'm working with leaders of,
you know, major corporations on every day.
I'm talking with them about how to future proof their work,
how to protect their impact, how to improve their programs,
rather than sit in this reactive space of, oh, you know,
woe is me, DEI isn't popular anymore,
but it was popular a couple years ago,
so I guess we should just stop doing everything
and wait for it to get popular again.
I feel like that kind of extremely reactive point of view,
um, actually gets in the way of progress sometimes,
and we need to take that bigger picture view
to ask ourselves, how can we actually sustain impact so
that in 10 years time we're
in a better place than we are now.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. Uh, I love that you're able to kind
of take that step back and,
and look at things a little bit more objectively
and maybe without the heaviness of emotion that I,
I think some people are carrying right now, understandably.
I'm curious, what are some of the, I mean, I, I have
to assume your your conversations
with business leaders are gonna be very tailored
to their organizations, to their situations,
but broadly speaking, what are some of the pieces
of advice you're offering around how we can
enhance maybe the efficacy
or the impact of our programs
or our efforts? Where do we start?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's, um, it's,
it's funny that I say this.
I'm having a very similar set of conversations
as the ones I had in 2020 following
the murder of George Floyd.
Whereas in 2020, employers were asking, what can we do
to respond reactively to this moment?
I refocused their questions to what can we do
to achieve progress using this moment
as a kicking off point, right now, in 2025,
leaders are all asking me, Lily, what can we do
to respond to this moment?
And I'm saying, no, what can we do to ensure
that we sustain progress using this moment
as a kicking off point?
And so leaders everywhere are essentially asking, you know,
the basic questions like, Hey, can you audit our DEI program
to make sure that it is legal, right?
It's, it's compliant with some
of the new directives being put out
or compliant with the law.
And that's relatively simple work.
It's not very difficult, right?
You, you look at employee resource groups,
and the law clearly says that they have
to be open to everyone.
And so if their ERGs are not open to everyone,
you say, I think that's a risk.
You should make them open to everyone.
And then they do that, and then that's it.
Like that they're, they are now legally
compliant, problem solved.
The harder questions are how can we actually, you know,
navigate this tightrope walk of
not putting a target on our back,
but also continuing our commitment
to our employees, our stakeholders, our customers,
our investors who want to see us making progress all while,
you know, holding up the values
that we care about and our reputation.
Like, that's, that's the million, that's,
that's the billion dollar question, right?
That's the hard thing for people to figure out.
And I'm trying to steer people in
that direction rather than this, you know, this reactive,
like, what would you tweak about this program
to make it compliant?
Which I find, you know, you, you don't even really need
too much expertise to do.
There's been so many great resources put out on the internet
on how, you know, we can evolve our
programs to be more compliant.
I think it's this kind of forward thinking view of
what is the future of this industry?
What are the demands on this work? How might it evolve?
Like, that's where I find the interesting stuff happening.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it, it is a really complex tension for
senior leaders to be navigating right now.
And, and at the end of the day, that's
so much of what leadership is.
There are always gonna be tensions and, and pulls
and pushes, and there's never quite a
rule book or a guidebook.
It is, it is kind of towing a line.
Um, I love how you are challenging them
to really think about progress and momentum.
You know, one of the other things I've heard you talk about
and I've seen you write about is really focusing on kind
of outcomes and impact over kind of performative inputs.
And I'll say, you know, in,
in my experience in the workplace, I do feel like so much of
what I see is, is truly, truly well-meaning
and well-intentioned, but ultimately more performative than
impactful on outcomes or results.
And I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about that and,
and how you are approaching things a little bit differently.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's really embodied in even
how we talk about this work.
On a basic level, we don't talk about DEI outcomes,
we don't talk about DEI results,
we talk about DEI programs, right?
Like every single conversation
that I've been having about this is like, Lily,
should we do more or less of DEI programs?
And I find that that frame and,
and I don't blame people for using it, practitioners use it.
I've used it, you know, leaders use it.
It gives us an easy way to be thinking about this work.
If you just look at your workplace
and you say, well, this year we had five events,
so next year if we're more committed, we'll have six events,
and if we're less committed, we'll have four events.
I think it gives people a really easy way to visualize
and to think about what this work might entail.
I think the harder question that I push people to ask is,
regardless of your number of events
or what events you host, what do you achieve through them?
Because if you have six events that are just, you know,
a song and a dance and you know, food flags
and fun, uh, which is how people, you know, sort
of derogatorily define a lot of DEI work,
and those six events achieve nothing.
They don't improve belonging, they don't increase inclusion,
they don't reduce discrimination.
Then I, I would say that there's no point
to those six events on the other side.
If you have one event or no events,
and somehow you're able to increase inclusion,
to increase belonging, to decrease discrimination,
then I would say you're doing it right?
Events be damned.
And so I think this outcomes focused approach,
which is basically asking ourselves, right?
Like, what's the point? Who benefits?
What's actually happening from all of this is
a must have in this work.
I mean, arguably we should have been doing
this 20 years ago.
And I think it's a travesty that we haven't been doing it
until basically now, right?
Like now I feel like there's some silver lining
of all this backlash where, you know,
I'm actually seeing companies look at their programs
and ask themselves like, which ones
of these programs are actually working?
And they're bringing me in to say like, Lily,
help us figure out which ones of these programs are working.
And on the one hand, I'm saying like,
that's great, I'm happy to help.
And on the other hand, I'm like, you,
you didn't have this figured out.
You didn't know which of these programs worked.
You've never done this analysis.
You've had these programs for 10 years.
And they're like, well, yeah, but they were popular,
so we didn't have to figure out whether they worked.
And that's the core, that's like one of the biggest
fatal flaws of a lot of mainstream work,
which is we do what's popular,
we don't care if it works or not.
Right now it's not popular.
Or at the very least, even if it is
popular, it's under attack.
And so companies are really looking closely at it
and asking what works.
And while I wish it was under different circumstances,
that is the right question.
The more they ask what works, the more they'll be able
to understand which of their programs, which
of their interventions are actually delivering value
and which ones are just window dressing.
I don't mind if companies roll back a hundred percent
of their window dressing, if that means
that they refocus their efforts on things
that are actually driving real progress, real impact,
real material benefit for everyone.
Speaker 1: It's a beautiful assessment of what's going on.
And, you know, it's making me think a lot about the work
that I do in organizations.
Part of what I do is I do a fair amount
of leadership development.
Um, I do programming, I do workshops,
and I see this trend happening.
I'm certainly not the only one,
but you know, a company sees a problem,
they bring in somebody like myself
to deliver a program or a training.
Um, things don't change.
And their conclusion is, well, the programs don't work,
or leadership development doesn't work,
or This type of intervention doesn't work when at the end
of the day, it might not have been the right intervention
for the problem you're trying to solve.
Sometimes the problem you're trying to solve, if,
for example, let's say you are trying
to infuse more innovation into your organization,
so you bring in a facilitator to run a workshop
and people still aren't innovating.
Maybe it was a bad program,
but also maybe your organization is obstructing innovation
structurally, and you've really gotta take
a hard look at the inside.
And I think sometimes, I don't know,
I don't wanna put words in your math, Lily,
but I feel like sometimes organizations,
they don't want to look inwards.
So they bring in a program
and then they can blame the program when
things agree, don't change.
Um, and it's hard
because the real work they need to do is to,
to hold up a mirror
and say, where are we creating experiences
that leave people feeling excluded?
Or where are we inhibiting belonging?
Where are we not inviting voices from, you know, faces
that don't look a certain way?
And it's, it's tricky and it's challenging
and it's a, it's a tough line to toe.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I, I very much resonate with that.
I, I remember I was having a tongue in cheek conversation
back in like 2017 with a client that was really,
really dead set on bringing me in for a workshop
to help their small startup, you know,
address a big DEI challenge.
And oh, I forget what the budget was,
it was like 10 10 k or something.
And their company was like, you know, 50 people.
And I basically told them like, do you have evidence?
Do you have a very strong belief
that spending this 10 K on me is going
to produce the outcomes that you're looking for more
so than, I don't know, splitting it by 50
and giving everyone a raise.
Because if you can't demonstrate that,
I think you should just give your employees a bonus, right?
Because I know that'll make them happier,
and I know that that's going
to do some more good for your workplace.
And I think it speaks to this challenge, right,
that you're also talking about, which is that oftentimes
companies find solutions
and then look for problems to fit them with instead
of truly understanding their problems so
that they can find the right solution.
And the sexiest solution to a company is a 60 minute
or 90 minute workshop that solves all of their problems.
This isn't to rip workshop facilitators, right?
But I could be the best facilitator in the entire world,
and I could deliver a workshop that produces no value
'cause it's not actually solving a real problem.
And so I think there were both, you know, supply side
and demand side challenges behind this, this, uh, you know,
this hole we're we're in, which is that yes,
like maybe we need to talk to facilitators
and DEI practitioners and, you know, workshop practitioners
and say like, you need to be doing better.
You're not actually delivering good practices.
We also need to be talking to the clients, the folks
who you know, are driving the demand for these services
and tell them like, please stop throwing 60 minute workshops
at problems that require a two year
change management effort.
It's just not going to work, right?
Like, I'm not a silver bullet,
I can't fix that kind of thing.
And, and so yeah, like I,
I think this is far larger than just a DEI related problem.
I think it happens with any
and all, you know, sort of learning
and development organizational change related problems.
But it certainly happens as well in DEI.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. And I do believe that,
and I wonder if you agree with this, sometimes a workshop
or a program may not be the solution,
but it can be a nice opening to a conversation, right?
It can start to give an organization maybe shared language
around a certain topic,
and then maybe it can help kind of lubricate a, a deeper
look at what's really going on. Huh?
Speaker 2: Okay. I I do disagree with that.
Speaker 1: Awesome. Let's do it.
Speaker 2: So, so the reason why I disagree with that is
because I think this is, this is one of the things
that workshop facilitators, including myself, tell ourselves
to justify doing these kinds of low impact interventions.
Okay? And I think individually in individual cases,
you might be right,
but I think this belief is one of the things
that keeps this whole machine running.
Because every single workshop facilitator I know
who tells themself this will say yes to an engagement
that they know will have next to no impact,
because they tell themselves that maybe it'll open the door
for something in the future, maybe it'll
support something happening in the future.
And what I tell my clients is that the workshop
itself is the least important aspect of the intervention.
The most important aspects are what happens
before the workshop and what happens after.
And I, I think you would say this
as much as anyone else, right?
A workshop that is not followed up on is just not a work.
It's, it's just not a workshop. Right?
But the challenge as a practitioner is that we don't have
that visibility into what happens after.
And so, you know, we can inadvertently become part
of this problem where even if we suspect
that we're being used as window dressing by employers
that are trying to deploy us to sort
of avoid talking about their challenges in the short term,
it can feel like, well,
a little good is better than doing nothing at all.
And I find this to be a very dangerous belief, right?
Because it, it can make us part of the problem.
I I have a very specific story from, um,
actually my very first corporate gig, um,
back in the mid 2010s that I actually got fired from,
which was not very inspiring.
But what basically happened is an employer brought me in
and said, Lily, we want
to deliver a really good allyship training.
And I said, great. I do allyship training, I'm good at that.
And then I said, but I don't know your workplace very well,
and you're telling me that you don't really have any,
you know, surveys or reports
or anything about what your employees need.
I'm just gonna do a little bit of a needs assessment
to help me design the best allyship training that I can.
And this company hemmed in hot,
and they're like, okay, fine, you can talk to some people.
So I went into their head headquarters,
they were based in San Francisco.
So I went up to San Francisco
and I talked to about 20 people.
It was a long day. And pretty much 15
of those 20 people said, what?
Allyship training, no one's asking for allyship training.
Not a single one of us want allyship training.
Like we have been trying to, you know, organize
and advocate to our leadership
to change these practices forever.
Like, we know exactly what we want
and it's not a damn allyship training.
Like, what are you talking about?
Like, why are you even here?
So I go back, you know, I, I,
I dutifully make a nice little report.
I send it to the client and I'm like,
I don't think an allyship training will solve your problem.
I think you should listen to your employees.
And what they say is, you know, like,
these are some big barriers that I found out in just one day
of talking to these people very consistently across all
departments, across almost all demographics.
They want your managers to be better.
So if anything, you should be training your managers
and they want some certain policies changed,
so you should look into changing those policies.
And they basically fired me on the spot for not sticking
to contract and delivering an allyship training.
And this was one of the very first lessons that I learned.
I mean, wild, right?
My first client, this was a big lesson that I learned
that oftentimes just delivering
what people want does not mean solving a real problem
or delivering what they need.
And from that engagement onwards, right?
I've been very, very, very careful
to scrutinize whether I am part of the problem
or whether I'm helping my clients actually
solve the real problem.
Speaker 1: That is a hard story to process.
Speaker 2: I know Speaker 1: , I can,
but I can, I can see that, I can see it playing out.
I absolutely, I hear you, I hear your
pushback on my initial assertion,
and I think it makes perfect sense.
I think what I was thinking about when I made the initial
comment, and I would love to get your thoughts on this
in terms of can we use a workshop just
to open up a conversation where my head was going was,
and I've heard you talk about this
before, Lily, this thing that's happening in,
in some pockets where, you know, there are, there are a lot
of things sort of challenging broad support
for DEI right now.
And one of those things in some pockets is people
who are maybe not necessarily part of a minority
feeling like they are,
they are suddenly being labeled the bad guys
or the bad gals, right?
And, and if you look a certain way, you know, bluntly kind
of being white, maybe cis male, uh,
you owe everybody an apology, right?
Mm-hmm. And, and DEI is really about pulling you down so
that minorities can, can find their space.
And I just, I wonder if for organizations where
a dynamic like that could be a play explicitly
or implicitly, if there's an opportunity for a workshop
to just start to open the minds of people
who are maybe feeling like for diversity to have air, I need
to be smaller.
I need to take a step back
and sort of using a workshop as a conversation to say,
this is for everybody to participate in.
This is not about apologies.
This is about how do we all come together
and sort of stand shoulder to shoulder.
And so I'm just curious what you think about that,
and if you could just address, agree
or disagree with my assertion
and just address what you are seeing and hearing.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think there are,
there are like two or three parts of this and,
and they're related, but they're not all the same thing.
So one part of this is, is it true that, you know, members
of let's say historically advantaged
or majority groups like cisgender, heterosexual Christian,
straight white men, right, um, are feeling demonized
by mainstream DEI efforts?
Yes, the answer is yes.
There, there was a research study done, um, gosh, at this,
this 0.4 or five years ago that found that 70%
of white male leaders feel like they do not have a space
and are not wanted within DEI work.
And that is one of the major factors
that drives their disengagement.
Um, despite them wanting to engage.
There's lots of research on this.
Um, and, you know, we can talk about the root of
that problem, how it exists, why, you know,
why it exists, how we can change it.
That's one thing I think it does exist.
The next thing that, that I heard you talk about is,
is it possible that a workshop can start this conversation
and sort of change this perception?
I think it's possible, but on the other hand,
why does it have to be a workshop is the thing, right?
Because what I see when I go into companies is yes,
I do see this dynamic happening pretty often,
and these days, maybe I'm biased
because I don't deliver many one-off workshops
because I personally don't think that they
are particularly effective.
I spend time working with companies over months and months
and months to get at the root of those beliefs.
Like I talk to, you know, members
of marginalized communities, I talk to chief DEI officers,
I talk to HR leaders,
and we spend quite a long time asking ourselves like,
how is it that we've created this perception that DEI
doesn't need or doesn't want,
or is actively demonizing cisgender, heterosexual white men?
And to fix those problems usually requires interventions
that last far more than 60 minutes, right?
Like, we need to talk about communication strategies,
we need to talk about coalition building.
We need to talk about, you know,
ways we can design this work so
that they take in feedback from everyone.
We need more participatory decision making processes.
Like each one of these interventions takes weeks
or months to create.
Can workshops be a part of those timelines? Yeah, sure.
Totally. But I have, I'm trying, I'm trying to,
to think if this is true.
I don't believe I have ever delivered a 60 minute workshop
that has claimed to even start a conversation about
changing the, the,
the conversation about cisgender heterosexual white men.
The reason being is that I know that the factors creating
that dynamic are far more entrenched than
what I can change in 60 minutes.
And so will people get a kick outta that workshop?
Will some, you know, cisgender,
heterosexual white men feel validated if they show up?
Yeah, certainly, right?
And what will happen if they feel validated, they feel good,
and then the organization goes right back to the status quo
as soon as I leave, I think that will actually be worse.
Like, I think that actually create more harm
if I set them up to fail.
If, if I say no, everyone, like, we can,
we can totally change the way we're thinking about this.
We can totally use new language.
Like we can make everyone feel,
you know, included and involved.
And then I leave, I collect my paycheck, people tell me
how much they like the workshop.
Like what if a week after they don't change anything?
And then the white men who showed up to that workshop
and are expecting that things will change,
get extra pissed off that things haven't changed.
I think there's a risk of greater backlash,
but I'm not there to see it.
And so I would ask myself, right?
Like, I agree that that's a challenge that needs
to be solved, but why a workshop?
Like, why are we so invested in this bite-sized
60 minute intervention?
Like, there's so many other things we can do, right?
Like so many other, like, at the very least, like
two workshops, three workshops, right?
Sell something that's not just right, this like sexy
one time thing, because I know
that that's where the demand lies.
I, I would argue, I would challenge
that if we are actually committed to impact, we need
to take responsibility for what happens after we leave.
Speaker 1: Okay, you got it. You win
Speaker 2: .
I mean, look, I'm not trying to win.
I just have a strong opinion about this.
And I think if we are in the business
of providing 60 minute workshops, right?
Because look, some people can't change their business model.
I know lots of people that do 60 minute workshops at the
very least, have higher standards
for when you say yes to a client.
Something that I used
to do when I delivered 60 minute workshops was to say,
give me a plan for what you're going
to do in the three months following the workshop.
And if they could not give me a plan,
I didn't do the workshop.
Like even doing something like that, right?
Like even doing a small thing like that
to provide accountability is better than what we have now.
So like, there's lots of, of opportunities for everybody
to be improving this work.
I'm not telling everyone doing workshop
that you've gotta pick a different line of work.
Speaker 1: No, I, I think it's really fair for me, it's sort
of analogous to companies running engagement surveys
and not actioning against them.
And I tell them it is more damaging to ask
and not respond than exactly.
Speaker 2: You just shouldn't run a survey if you're, you're not pre,
you know, committed to changing things.
It's exactly the same logic, right?
Sometimes doing a little bit
of something is worse than doing nothing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I think, I think that's fair.
So we're talking about impact,
we're talking about the importance of actually changing
outcomes and experiences rather than just performing.
What are some things in your, in your experience,
whether personally for yourself and
or as you see client organizations, when we talk about
shifting the experience of inclusion
and belonging, you know, I find
that not everybody even knows what that means.
Not everybody even knows how to answer the question.
Do you experience a sense of inclusion and belonging?
Mm-hmm . I I sometimes will get
people saying, I, I don't know.
Like, what, what does that even exactly mean?
And so as we think about, so I think what you
and I are talking about is the
importance of impact and outcomes.
But in order for organizations
or people to be able to assess impact, they have
to understand what we're even asking in the first time.
Speaker 2: Which outcomes, right? What impact,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So
Speaker 1: How Speaker 2: Do
Speaker 1: You, how do you help people understand
or characterize their own experiences
of inclusion and belonging?
How do you describe those? Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, this goes back to, um, I think DEI has a bit
of a jargon problem in the sense that since gosh, right,
since the nineties, we've been defining
and redefining these words every single day.
And still no one knows how to define them.
Um, inclusion, for example, when I was writing my,
my third book, um, actually the one right behind me,
DEID deconstructed, I was looking up definitions
of inclusion because I was curious what I found,
and no, no joke, it's, it's in the book, I find a definition
that says inclusion is the presence of belonging.
And I was like, oh, yeah, really nice.
And then I looked up belonging.
It said, belonging is the presence of inclusion.
And I, like, I literally remember like sitting
and just laughing for like two minutes, right?
I was like, this, this is like absolutely in part, like,
like no one, no one can parse this, right?
Like, not even the people writing about it know what it is.
So I did a deep dive, um,
looking into social science research
because, you know, there's no way
that like a social scientist could get away
with saying anything like that.
And it turns out there's lots of better definitions.
Uh, for example, for inclusion, one of the ones
that I really liked is breaking down inclusion into a set
of three smaller outcomes, which is feeling respected,
feeling valued, and feeling safe.
And so if people felt a sense of respect,
if people felt like they were valued
and people felt like they were safe, they felt included,
each of those things are measurable.
You can ask people about their perceptions of respect,
and people are pretty accurate about that, right?
If you feel disrespected,
you're gonna say you feel disrespected.
Um, you can ask about their perception of value.
People are going to compare themselves to their coworkers
and how they see that their contributions or their words
or their performance is valued.
You can ask about safety, both physical safety
and psychological safety.
Those are very well defined in the research literature.
And so for me, I don't, you know, concern myself if it,
with asking, if inclusion is belonging
or belonging is inclusion, I just say,
look, how do you measure these things?
Right? And there's lots of good research
that actually tells us how to measure these things.
So sometimes with one, one client, they were just like,
then why do we need to call it inclusion?
And I'm like, yeah, good point.
You don't have to, if you don't want to say
that you value helping people feel respected, valued,
and safe, and then done.
If you get high respect, high value
and high safety for everyone, congrats.
You've basically achieved inclusion.
You don't even have to call it that, right?
Like, like oftentimes we can get so wrapped up in the words
that we don't achieve the outcomes
that these words are trying to steer us towards, right?
And, and, and I've written extensively about this.
I've talked about how we measure these things.
Um, and I think a common takeaway is that like, well, Lily,
then why don't we, why do we spend
so much time talking about the words to begin
with when we can just make things better
and achieve some of these outcomes?
And I say like, right, right, right.
Like, like, this is the light bulb moment.
Like, why are we talking so much about the words
and doing nothing to change people's actual
experiences that needs to change?
Speaker 1: That's incredible. And that's, so, that is
so much more clear, those three things
that you just just described.
But not only that, they almost separate the experience from
the whole diversity label in the first place,
because presumably everybody, no matter what they look like,
what groups they belong to deserve to feel valued,
safe, and respected.
Yeah. Um, that's a, I feel like we've just touched on
that very quickly, but that to me feels like a, a bit of a,
a watershed moment for me.
It just, it shifts everything out of this realm of like,
oh my gosh, I'm so tired of talking about the,
the minorities and the, it's like, no, no, let's,
let's talk about humanity.
I mean, I kind of feel like
that's the direction that you're heading in.
And when we all feel those things in equal measures,
what groups we identify with matters less almost.
It's just, do we all feel this experience?
And, and presumably there may be certain groups
that feel it less, and that's, you know, where the,
the energy needs to go.
Mm-hmm . But you almost stripped some of the, um,
I don't know, some of what I feel like makes people feel
prickly about these conversations.
You've kind of stripped it out.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, so this is, this is not my idea,
but there's some really brilliant work coming out of the,
um, the Berkeley School of Othering and Belonging,
and a particular leader, John Johnny A. Powell, okay, from
that school who came up with this concept
called targeted universalism.
And targeted universalism is really powerful.
It relates a lot to what we're talking about.
Because instead of asking which group deserves
support, which group is worthy,
which group deserves DEI work it instead said,
it instead says, all of us deserve these outcomes,
but we can learn from individual groups' experiences
to design better for everyone.
Because I think DEI has been caught
between these two opposing conversations,
which I believe aren't helpful.
One is, I don't see race, I don't see identity.
Identity doesn't matter. We're all one race. The human race.
I think that's not helpful because it obscures the real
differences in experience that exist in our society.
But then on the other side, we have like, oh,
identities are everything,
and there's this hierarchy
of which identities are more versus less oppressed.
So we're gonna play oppression Olympics
and count how many marginalized identities you have.
If you have enough, then you're allowed to talk.
If you don't have enough, then you need to shut up.
I think that's just so, so backwards, so harmful.
And it also keeps us from actually achieving any change,
because we're all busy arguing
with each other about who's more oppressed, right?
I think this, this perspective of we need to recognize
that identity is valid
and powerful so that we can improve things for everyone, is
how we bridge these two ineffective approaches.
And I think talking about outcomes, right?
Talking about, let's say safety, uh, respect, uh, value,
these universal things,
but also being open
to identifying identity related barriers, right?
Like, this is, like, that's
what DEI work should have been from the start.
And so when people say, like, Lily, I think, you know,
this inclusion work is,
is focusing too much on certain groups,
you can just go right back to them
and go like, okay, well, um, is there anything we can do
to help you feel more, uh, valued, respected, and safe?
And I guarantee it'll throw people for a loop.
They're like, what? Like me, like, but I'm a cis white man.
I thought it doesn't matter as much that I feel, you know,
safe, respected, and valued.
And I'm like, what are you talking about? Right?
Like, everyone deserves to feel safe, respected, and valued.
And if you're having a really good time
and you already feel those things,
then help me understand why you feel those things so
that I can apply that to everyone else.
And if you're not having a really good time,
maybe you don't feel safe,
maybe you don't feel valued, what would help?
And then we go around to every single, you know,
marginalized group also
to say like, Hey, what are the barriers?
And we learn from those experiences.
Say, Hey, everyone, maybe for example,
no one in this entire workplace feels valued
because of this one thing that we can change over here.
Or maybe some people feel safe,
but other people don't feel safe
because this policy isn't being applied equally.
Gosh, we, we gotta fix that, right?
Like, this takes this entire conversation away from
oppression Olympics towards actual problem solving
that makes everyone feel like they have
something to benefit from.
And like, that's, I mean, that's
what this work should have been from the start, right?
I'm not saying anything controversial, it's just
I think some DEI work has drifted from this vision.
Like that's what it should have been.
Speaker 1: I'm feeling a little speechless, Lily,
which is not an experience that is common for me.
So thank you.
I don't always listen to my own interviews,
but I know I will be listening to this one.
So thank you so much for all of this incredible insight.
I have one more question for you before we start to close.
There's so many rich ideas in this conversation,
but for anybody who's listening right now, sitting
anywhere on an org chart, anywhere in an organization
who's having an experience of, well,
I don't feel all of those things.
I don't always feel safe or respected or valued.
I feel marginalized for whatever reasons.
What, what do you encourage people
who maybe are feeling a little bit helpless
and a little bit hungry for something?
Where can we start if we don't feel like we necessarily have
a lot of formal authority or power in our workplace?
Speaker 2: Organize, organize, organize, organize.
I think, um, a lot of mainstream DEI has kind
of been self-help unified.
And so the advice that we tend to hear is like,
here are five things you can do as an individual
to feel more safe, respected, and valued.
There's lots of advice like that on the internet.
I can tell you to power pose more
before your meetings, right?
Maybe that'll make you feel better.
Look, that advice has been talked to death.
I think what we haven't talked enough about is the power
that comes from the collective.
And I would say if you don't feel safe, respected,
or valued, you are not alone.
You have other colleagues
who likely don't feel safe, respected, or valued.
And so one of the most powerful things you can do is
to ask yourself and to ask others why?
Like, why is the question of the effective DEI practitioner?
That's, that's what I do. I go into companies and I ask why.
But you can do that without me. You can do that yourself.
You can say like, what's going on here?
Why do I feel unsafe? Like, is it just me?
Who else is feeling unsafe? Why are we all feeling unsafe?
Why are we all feeling unvalued?
What's wrong with this workplace?
Which things are not working as intended?
Or if they are working as intended,
how do we shift what's actually happening here?
And that's how we start to build movements.
That's how we build coalitions.
And it turns out right,
especially if we get away from this
oppression Olympics nonsense, right?
That the number of people, the, the groups of people
who have something to benefit
or who have something
to gain from changing the status quo was
probably more people than you think.
I'm sure there are lots of people who feel unsafe, lots
of people who feel undervalued, disrespected.
And so if you can understand why
and you can find other colleagues
who share those experiences, you can organize, right?
And I'm talking, you can do so formally, right?
You can, you can form a labor union.
You can do so informally.
You can join a DEI council, participate in ERG, um,
you can lobby your, uh, leaders.
You can have a conversation.
You can start a dialogue, right?
You can post on social media, right?
But like by coming together in the collective
and to turn your experience, your singular experience
of feeling excluded into a collective experience
of creating change, like everyone can do that today.
You can do that now, right?
You just have to recognize that going at it alone
is not going to change anything.
Self-help is not the answer
to these big systemic inequities.
It's organizing, it's collective action.
And your colleagues have more in common
with you, right?
Than they are all different.
Like, that's I think, one of the biggest takeaways, which is
that like, we are all different.
We all have different identities
and we share so much in common, right?
If we recognize that we can organize,
we can make a difference, we can make change.
And that's how this work needs to happen.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. Lily,
before we close, is there anything that I haven't asked you
that feels important
that you wanna leave listeners with today?
Speaker 2: You know, everyone always asks that,
and it's one of those things where like, well, we could talk
for another hour, but I think I left
it at a pretty good point.
I mean, I'll, I'll make one part of that 0.1 more time,
which is that you have power.
Anyone. You have power. You don't need to be a manager.
You don't have to be an executive.
You have power, you have a voice, you have insight.
You collectively, if you organize
and you understand the why,
and you talk to your colleagues across difference, right?
Even if it's uncomfortable,
like we can do big things together.
And that's what we're going to have to do if we wanna get
through this moment and, you know, stop eating each other
and actually create real progress for everyone instead
of getting swept up in these culture wars,
which I think are a waste
of everyone's time, and no one likes them.
Speaker 1: Oof. Lily, I cannot thank you enough for your time
and your thoughtfulness and your insight today.
I have enjoyed this so much.
Thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
I hope this gives lots of value to the folks tuning in,
and I hope folks, uh, have many ideas for what
to apply in your own work and your own lives.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. No doubt. And there will be more information
that we'll share in the show notes for anybody who wants
to learn more about Lily.
But thanks again. Have a good one.
Speaker 2: Bye. Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Lily Jang.
You can learn more about them at their website,
lily jang.co, which you'll also find in the show notes.
Join me next week for another great episode.
Until then, visit my website@leadabovenoise.com
and follow Modern Mentor on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Thanks so much for listening and have a successful week.
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