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<v Speaker 1>Hey, it's Rachel Cook, your Modern mentor.</v>

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I'm the founder of Lead Above Noise, where we help leaders

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activate high performance, no burnout required, whether

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through boot camps, keynote talks,

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or pulse checks, we help teams achieve meaningful change if

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that's what your organization needs.

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Let's talk, and

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before we jump into today's episode, just as a reminder,

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please leave a review if you can swing it.

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It really helps new listeners find the show. Okay.

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So today I'm excited to bring you this interview

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with Lily Zang.

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Lily is an author, speaker,

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and consultant in the world

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of diversity, equity, and inclusion.

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And you might be thinking, well, there are lots

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of voices out there on this topic, and you'd be right.

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But I'm telling you, Lily brings a fresh take to inclusion

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and belonging and how we can better create these experiences

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for really everyone in the workplace.

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I spent a few moments during this conversation pretty

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speechless, and that is a rare thing for me.

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Just ask my kids. I learned a ton, and I hope you do too.

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So let's get into it. Lily Zang, consultant, strategist,

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and author, all of the things around diversity,

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equity, and inclusion.

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It is such a pleasure

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to have you join me on the Modern Mentor Podcast today.

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Thank you for being here.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for having me.</v>

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I am really stoked to have this conversation.

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I think it's going to be lots of fun.

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<v Speaker 1>I have been looking forward to this for quite some time.</v>

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So, Lily, before we dive in

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and there's so much ground I wanna cover with you,

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can you just give us kind of the quick backstory around

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what brought you to the work that you do today?

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely. So I think like many DEI practitioners</v>

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and folks who end up in the, uh, DEI space, um,

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I was quite passionate about leveraging

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what I learned from school and my skills

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and my passion to building better workplaces for everyone.

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I think unlike a lot of DEI practitioners,

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I got my start right out of college in, um,

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DEI teaching roles basically as an educator, as someone

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who delivered this content

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and taught folks within, um, higher ed on how to be

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a more inclusive leader on how

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to design more inclusive workplaces.

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And that at this point was about 10 years ago.

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And I would characterize my journey in those last 10 years

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as a journey from very shallow, very surface level

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awareness, building towards

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deeper organizational change work.

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And so while I got my start just kind

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of educating people on, for example, like what is gender?

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What is gender 1 0 1, what is race? What is race 1 0 1?

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Nowadays I'm doing things like

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how can we achieve actual equity and fairness

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and inclusion within organizations for everyone?

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How can we end discrimination?

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How can we create a true meritocracy?

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How can we create healthy workplaces?

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And how can we use the tools of organizational design,

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organizational development, right?

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Effective leadership, change management

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to achieve these better outcomes for everyone.

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<v Speaker 1>That's amazing. It's quite a journey</v>

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and congratulations to you on,

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on finding your place in this conversation.

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So tell me a little bit about, you know, we,

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we are, we're in a moment.

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We're always in a moment. Right now we are in 2025.

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And, and certainly here in the US we've seen a lot of change

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regarding how, how we're talking about DEI, the role

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that it's playing in society, in in politics, education,

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healthcare, it's everywhere.

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Mm-hmm . I would love your kind of your 10,000 foot view.

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I mean, what's top of mind for you right now

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as you think about what's happening in the space?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah. I think, um, since you nudged the 10,000,</v>

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uh, feet in the air view is really taking

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a historical perspective on what's going on.

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And when I zoom out to that distance, I actually see this

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as the latest pendulum swing in a 60 year

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series of cycles.

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We've been in this place before.

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And when I say this place, I mean the obvious,

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which is DEI is under attack, DEI is under retreat, right?

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Um, companies and organizations

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and, you know, society at large is kind

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of feeling this backswing of progress

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following the 2020 murder of George Floyd, which drove a,

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you know, big frenzy and a big explosion of DEI support.

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So yes, right now we are in a backswing,

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but when I zoom out, I see this as the latest

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cycle in what's been going on for more than half

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of a century of, you know, progress being met with backlash,

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being met with progress, being met with backlash.

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And so what I've been focusing on during this time is not,

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is DEI under attack yes or no?

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Yeah. The answer is yes.

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It's how can we make the most of this moment

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to adapt and improve DEI

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or whatever we choose to call it, moving forward,

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if not DEI, so that the next forward swing

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of the pendulum can do more good

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and can be more resistant to a wave of backlash,

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like the one that we're experiencing.

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That's the kind of work that I'm working with leaders of,

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you know, major corporations on every day.

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I'm talking with them about how to future proof their work,

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how to protect their impact, how to improve their programs,

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rather than sit in this reactive space of, oh, you know,

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woe is me, DEI isn't popular anymore,

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but it was popular a couple years ago,

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so I guess we should just stop doing everything

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and wait for it to get popular again.

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I feel like that kind of extremely reactive point of view,

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um, actually gets in the way of progress sometimes,

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and we need to take that bigger picture view

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to ask ourselves, how can we actually sustain impact so

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that in 10 years time we're

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in a better place than we are now.

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<v Speaker 1>That's amazing. Uh, I love that you're able to kind</v>

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of take that step back and,

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and look at things a little bit more objectively

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and maybe without the heaviness of emotion that I,

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I think some people are carrying right now, understandably.

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I'm curious, what are some of the, I mean, I, I have

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to assume your your conversations

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with business leaders are gonna be very tailored

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to their organizations, to their situations,

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but broadly speaking, what are some of the pieces

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of advice you're offering around how we can

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enhance maybe the efficacy

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or the impact of our programs

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or our efforts? Where do we start?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, it's, um, it's,</v>

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it's funny that I say this.

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I'm having a very similar set of conversations

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as the ones I had in 2020 following

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the murder of George Floyd.

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Whereas in 2020, employers were asking, what can we do

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to respond reactively to this moment?

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I refocused their questions to what can we do

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to achieve progress using this moment

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as a kicking off point, right now, in 2025,

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leaders are all asking me, Lily, what can we do

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to respond to this moment?

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And I'm saying, no, what can we do to ensure

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that we sustain progress using this moment

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as a kicking off point?

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And so leaders everywhere are essentially asking, you know,

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the basic questions like, Hey, can you audit our DEI program

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to make sure that it is legal, right?

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It's, it's compliant with some

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of the new directives being put out

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or compliant with the law.

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And that's relatively simple work.

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It's not very difficult, right?

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You, you look at employee resource groups,

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and the law clearly says that they have

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to be open to everyone.

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And so if their ERGs are not open to everyone,

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you say, I think that's a risk.

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You should make them open to everyone.

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And then they do that, and then that's it.

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Like that they're, they are now legally

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compliant, problem solved.

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The harder questions are how can we actually, you know,

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navigate this tightrope walk of

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not putting a target on our back,

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but also continuing our commitment

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to our employees, our stakeholders, our customers,

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our investors who want to see us making progress all while,

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you know, holding up the values

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that we care about and our reputation.

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Like, that's, that's the million, that's,

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that's the billion dollar question, right?

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That's the hard thing for people to figure out.

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And I'm trying to steer people in

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that direction rather than this, you know, this reactive,

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like, what would you tweak about this program

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to make it compliant?

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Which I find, you know, you, you don't even really need

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too much expertise to do.

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There's been so many great resources put out on the internet

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on how, you know, we can evolve our

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programs to be more compliant.

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I think it's this kind of forward thinking view of

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what is the future of this industry?

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What are the demands on this work? How might it evolve?

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Like, that's where I find the interesting stuff happening.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it, it is a really complex tension for</v>

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senior leaders to be navigating right now.

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And, and at the end of the day, that's

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so much of what leadership is.

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There are always gonna be tensions and, and pulls

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and pushes, and there's never quite a

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rule book or a guidebook.

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It is, it is kind of towing a line.

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Um, I love how you are challenging them

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to really think about progress and momentum.

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You know, one of the other things I've heard you talk about

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and I've seen you write about is really focusing on kind

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of outcomes and impact over kind of performative inputs.

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And I'll say, you know, in,

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in my experience in the workplace, I do feel like so much of

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what I see is, is truly, truly well-meaning

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and well-intentioned, but ultimately more performative than

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impactful on outcomes or results.

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And I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about that and,

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and how you are approaching things a little bit differently.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's really embodied in even</v>

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how we talk about this work.

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On a basic level, we don't talk about DEI outcomes,

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we don't talk about DEI results,

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we talk about DEI programs, right?

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Like every single conversation

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that I've been having about this is like, Lily,

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should we do more or less of DEI programs?

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And I find that that frame and,

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and I don't blame people for using it, practitioners use it.

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I've used it, you know, leaders use it.

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It gives us an easy way to be thinking about this work.

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If you just look at your workplace

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and you say, well, this year we had five events,

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so next year if we're more committed, we'll have six events,

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and if we're less committed, we'll have four events.

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I think it gives people a really easy way to visualize

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and to think about what this work might entail.

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I think the harder question that I push people to ask is,

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regardless of your number of events

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or what events you host, what do you achieve through them?

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Because if you have six events that are just, you know,

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a song and a dance and you know, food flags

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and fun, uh, which is how people, you know, sort

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of derogatorily define a lot of DEI work,

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and those six events achieve nothing.

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They don't improve belonging, they don't increase inclusion,

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they don't reduce discrimination.

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Then I, I would say that there's no point

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to those six events on the other side.

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If you have one event or no events,

246
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and somehow you're able to increase inclusion,

247
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to increase belonging, to decrease discrimination,

248
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then I would say you're doing it right?

249
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Events be damned.

250
00:12:09.755 --> 00:12:13.735
And so I think this outcomes focused approach,

251
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which is basically asking ourselves, right?

252
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Like, what's the point? Who benefits?

253
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What's actually happening from all of this is

254
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a must have in this work.

255
00:12:23.815 --> 00:12:25.215
I mean, arguably we should have been doing

256
00:12:25.215 --> 00:12:26.335
this 20 years ago.

257
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And I think it's a travesty that we haven't been doing it

258
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until basically now, right?

259
00:12:32.725 --> 00:12:35.975
Like now I feel like there's some silver lining

260
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of all this backlash where, you know,

261
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I'm actually seeing companies look at their programs

262
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and ask themselves like, which ones

263
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of these programs are actually working?

264
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And they're bringing me in to say like, Lily,

265
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help us figure out which ones of these programs are working.

266
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And on the one hand, I'm saying like,

267
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that's great, I'm happy to help.

268
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And on the other hand, I'm like, you,

269
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you didn't have this figured out.

270
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You didn't know which of these programs worked.

271
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You've never done this analysis.

272
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You've had these programs for 10 years.

273
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And they're like, well, yeah, but they were popular,

274
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so we didn't have to figure out whether they worked.

275
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And that's the core, that's like one of the biggest

276
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fatal flaws of a lot of mainstream work,

277
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which is we do what's popular,

278
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we don't care if it works or not.

279
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Right now it's not popular.

280
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Or at the very least, even if it is

281
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popular, it's under attack.

282
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And so companies are really looking closely at it

283
00:13:27.165 --> 00:13:28.405
and asking what works.

284
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And while I wish it was under different circumstances,

285
00:13:31.835 --> 00:13:33.565
that is the right question.

286
00:13:33.985 --> 00:13:36.285
The more they ask what works, the more they'll be able

287
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to understand which of their programs, which

288
00:13:38.565 --> 00:13:40.925
of their interventions are actually delivering value

289
00:13:41.225 --> 00:13:42.765
and which ones are just window dressing.

290
00:13:43.485 --> 00:13:47.125
I don't mind if companies roll back a hundred percent

291
00:13:47.125 --> 00:13:49.085
of their window dressing, if that means

292
00:13:49.085 --> 00:13:50.765
that they refocus their efforts on things

293
00:13:50.765 --> 00:13:53.885
that are actually driving real progress, real impact,

294
00:13:53.915 --> 00:13:56.045
real material benefit for everyone.

295
00:13:56.635 --> 00:13:59.805
<v Speaker 1>It's a beautiful assessment of what's going on.</v>

296
00:13:59.825 --> 00:14:02.045
And, you know, it's making me think a lot about the work

297
00:14:02.155 --> 00:14:03.845
that I do in organizations.

298
00:14:03.955 --> 00:14:05.845
Part of what I do is I do a fair amount

299
00:14:05.845 --> 00:14:06.885
of leadership development.

300
00:14:06.985 --> 00:14:09.005
Um, I do programming, I do workshops,

301
00:14:09.265 --> 00:14:11.125
and I see this trend happening.

302
00:14:11.465 --> 00:14:12.725
I'm certainly not the only one,

303
00:14:12.865 --> 00:14:14.885
but you know, a company sees a problem,

304
00:14:15.155 --> 00:14:16.925
they bring in somebody like myself

305
00:14:16.925 --> 00:14:18.485
to deliver a program or a training.

306
00:14:18.985 --> 00:14:20.325
Um, things don't change.

307
00:14:20.825 --> 00:14:23.725
And their conclusion is, well, the programs don't work,

308
00:14:23.785 --> 00:14:25.165
or leadership development doesn't work,

309
00:14:25.225 --> 00:14:28.365
or This type of intervention doesn't work when at the end

310
00:14:28.365 --> 00:14:31.205
of the day, it might not have been the right intervention

311
00:14:31.465 --> 00:14:33.045
for the problem you're trying to solve.

312
00:14:33.115 --> 00:14:35.565
Sometimes the problem you're trying to solve, if,

313
00:14:35.665 --> 00:14:37.845
for example, let's say you are trying

314
00:14:37.845 --> 00:14:40.085
to infuse more innovation into your organization,

315
00:14:40.145 --> 00:14:42.845
so you bring in a facilitator to run a workshop

316
00:14:43.105 --> 00:14:44.685
and people still aren't innovating.

317
00:14:45.415 --> 00:14:46.565
Maybe it was a bad program,

318
00:14:46.785 --> 00:14:50.605
but also maybe your organization is obstructing innovation

319
00:14:51.245 --> 00:14:53.005
structurally, and you've really gotta take

320
00:14:53.045 --> 00:14:54.165
a hard look at the inside.

321
00:14:54.185 --> 00:14:56.005
And I think sometimes, I don't know,

322
00:14:56.285 --> 00:14:57.965
I don't wanna put words in your math, Lily,

323
00:14:57.965 --> 00:14:59.685
but I feel like sometimes organizations,

324
00:15:00.195 --> 00:15:01.925
they don't want to look inwards.

325
00:15:02.025 --> 00:15:03.125
So they bring in a program

326
00:15:03.385 --> 00:15:04.965
and then they can blame the program when

327
00:15:04.965 --> 00:15:06.085
things agree, don't change.

328
00:15:06.745 --> 00:15:08.205
Um, and it's hard

329
00:15:08.205 --> 00:15:10.765
because the real work they need to do is to,

330
00:15:10.905 --> 00:15:11.965
to hold up a mirror

331
00:15:12.025 --> 00:15:15.205
and say, where are we creating experiences

332
00:15:15.205 --> 00:15:16.845
that leave people feeling excluded?

333
00:15:16.945 --> 00:15:18.605
Or where are we inhibiting belonging?

334
00:15:18.605 --> 00:15:23.005
Where are we not inviting voices from, you know, faces

335
00:15:23.005 --> 00:15:24.205
that don't look a certain way?

336
00:15:24.345 --> 00:15:27.005
And it's, it's tricky and it's challenging

337
00:15:27.005 --> 00:15:29.285
and it's a, it's a tough line to toe.

338
00:15:29.755 --> 00:15:32.885
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah. I, I very much resonate with that.</v>

339
00:15:33.165 --> 00:15:37.325
I, I remember I was having a tongue in cheek conversation

340
00:15:37.395 --> 00:15:41.485
back in like 2017 with a client that was really,

341
00:15:41.625 --> 00:15:45.085
really dead set on bringing me in for a workshop

342
00:15:45.625 --> 00:15:48.125
to help their small startup, you know,

343
00:15:48.125 --> 00:15:49.845
address a big DEI challenge.

344
00:15:50.505 --> 00:15:52.525
And oh, I forget what the budget was,

345
00:15:52.545 --> 00:15:54.405
it was like 10 10 k or something.

346
00:15:54.405 --> 00:15:56.365
And their company was like, you know, 50 people.

347
00:15:56.705 --> 00:16:01.125
And I basically told them like, do you have evidence?

348
00:16:01.225 --> 00:16:02.845
Do you have a very strong belief

349
00:16:03.115 --> 00:16:06.565
that spending this 10 K on me is going

350
00:16:06.565 --> 00:16:09.885
to produce the outcomes that you're looking for more

351
00:16:09.905 --> 00:16:12.085
so than, I don't know, splitting it by 50

352
00:16:12.105 --> 00:16:13.325
and giving everyone a raise.

353
00:16:13.915 --> 00:16:16.685
Because if you can't demonstrate that,

354
00:16:17.125 --> 00:16:20.125
I think you should just give your employees a bonus, right?

355
00:16:20.125 --> 00:16:21.885
Because I know that'll make them happier,

356
00:16:22.145 --> 00:16:23.165
and I know that that's going

357
00:16:23.165 --> 00:16:25.205
to do some more good for your workplace.

358
00:16:25.745 --> 00:16:27.885
And I think it speaks to this challenge, right,

359
00:16:28.475 --> 00:16:31.925
that you're also talking about, which is that oftentimes

360
00:16:32.445 --> 00:16:34.525
companies find solutions

361
00:16:34.785 --> 00:16:38.045
and then look for problems to fit them with instead

362
00:16:38.045 --> 00:16:40.125
of truly understanding their problems so

363
00:16:40.125 --> 00:16:42.085
that they can find the right solution.

364
00:16:42.985 --> 00:16:47.365
And the sexiest solution to a company is a 60 minute

365
00:16:47.385 --> 00:16:50.245
or 90 minute workshop that solves all of their problems.

366
00:16:50.515 --> 00:16:52.845
This isn't to rip workshop facilitators, right?

367
00:16:52.845 --> 00:16:55.605
But I could be the best facilitator in the entire world,

368
00:16:55.985 --> 00:16:58.405
and I could deliver a workshop that produces no value

369
00:16:58.645 --> 00:17:00.485
'cause it's not actually solving a real problem.

370
00:17:01.465 --> 00:17:05.085
And so I think there were both, you know, supply side

371
00:17:05.105 --> 00:17:09.845
and demand side challenges behind this, this, uh, you know,

372
00:17:09.845 --> 00:17:12.685
this hole we're we're in, which is that yes,

373
00:17:12.875 --> 00:17:14.885
like maybe we need to talk to facilitators

374
00:17:14.945 --> 00:17:18.165
and DEI practitioners and, you know, workshop practitioners

375
00:17:18.745 --> 00:17:20.565
and say like, you need to be doing better.

376
00:17:20.785 --> 00:17:22.645
You're not actually delivering good practices.

377
00:17:22.825 --> 00:17:25.565
We also need to be talking to the clients, the folks

378
00:17:25.625 --> 00:17:28.445
who you know, are driving the demand for these services

379
00:17:28.905 --> 00:17:32.365
and tell them like, please stop throwing 60 minute workshops

380
00:17:32.365 --> 00:17:34.565
at problems that require a two year

381
00:17:34.565 --> 00:17:35.765
change management effort.

382
00:17:36.435 --> 00:17:38.725
It's just not going to work, right?

383
00:17:38.795 --> 00:17:40.325
Like, I'm not a silver bullet,

384
00:17:40.525 --> 00:17:41.685
I can't fix that kind of thing.

385
00:17:42.345 --> 00:17:43.765
And, and so yeah, like I,

386
00:17:44.085 --> 00:17:47.365
I think this is far larger than just a DEI related problem.

387
00:17:47.845 --> 00:17:49.005
I think it happens with any

388
00:17:49.225 --> 00:17:50.725
and all, you know, sort of learning

389
00:17:50.745 --> 00:17:53.925
and development organizational change related problems.

390
00:17:54.185 --> 00:17:56.485
But it certainly happens as well in DEI.

391
00:17:57.205 --> 00:17:59.565
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely. And I do believe that,</v>

392
00:17:59.945 --> 00:18:02.765
and I wonder if you agree with this, sometimes a workshop

393
00:18:02.765 --> 00:18:04.765
or a program may not be the solution,

394
00:18:04.825 --> 00:18:08.765
but it can be a nice opening to a conversation, right?

395
00:18:08.785 --> 00:18:12.285
It can start to give an organization maybe shared language

396
00:18:12.545 --> 00:18:13.725
around a certain topic,

397
00:18:13.945 --> 00:18:17.645
and then maybe it can help kind of lubricate a, a deeper

398
00:18:18.435 --> 00:18:20.765
look at what's really going on. Huh?

399
00:18:21.115 --> 00:18:23.485
<v Speaker 2>Okay. I I do disagree with that.</v>

400
00:18:23.875 --> 00:18:24.885
<v Speaker 1>Awesome. Let's do it.</v>

401
00:18:25.185 --> 00:18:28.245
<v Speaker 2>So, so the reason why I disagree with that is</v>

402
00:18:28.245 --> 00:18:31.485
because I think this is, this is one of the things

403
00:18:31.485 --> 00:18:34.565
that workshop facilitators, including myself, tell ourselves

404
00:18:34.665 --> 00:18:37.645
to justify doing these kinds of low impact interventions.

405
00:18:37.915 --> 00:18:42.875
Okay? And I think individually in individual cases,

406
00:18:43.455 --> 00:18:44.875
you might be right,

407
00:18:45.775 --> 00:18:48.515
but I think this belief is one of the things

408
00:18:48.515 --> 00:18:50.515
that keeps this whole machine running.

409
00:18:51.065 --> 00:18:54.195
Because every single workshop facilitator I know

410
00:18:54.215 --> 00:18:57.515
who tells themself this will say yes to an engagement

411
00:18:57.515 --> 00:18:59.315
that they know will have next to no impact,

412
00:18:59.315 --> 00:19:02.235
because they tell themselves that maybe it'll open the door

413
00:19:02.255 --> 00:19:04.195
for something in the future, maybe it'll

414
00:19:04.195 --> 00:19:05.475
support something happening in the future.

415
00:19:06.135 --> 00:19:10.115
And what I tell my clients is that the workshop

416
00:19:10.695 --> 00:19:14.915
itself is the least important aspect of the intervention.

417
00:19:15.295 --> 00:19:16.995
The most important aspects are what happens

418
00:19:16.995 --> 00:19:18.555
before the workshop and what happens after.

419
00:19:19.865 --> 00:19:22.685
And I, I think you would say this

420
00:19:22.685 --> 00:19:23.805
as much as anyone else, right?

421
00:19:24.285 --> 00:19:27.405
A workshop that is not followed up on is just not a work.

422
00:19:27.595 --> 00:19:29.245
It's, it's just not a workshop. Right?

423
00:19:29.625 --> 00:19:33.045
But the challenge as a practitioner is that we don't have

424
00:19:33.045 --> 00:19:35.285
that visibility into what happens after.

425
00:19:36.185 --> 00:19:39.285
And so, you know, we can inadvertently become part

426
00:19:39.285 --> 00:19:41.725
of this problem where even if we suspect

427
00:19:41.725 --> 00:19:45.085
that we're being used as window dressing by employers

428
00:19:45.085 --> 00:19:46.925
that are trying to deploy us to sort

429
00:19:46.925 --> 00:19:50.245
of avoid talking about their challenges in the short term,

430
00:19:50.305 --> 00:19:51.365
it can feel like, well,

431
00:19:51.605 --> 00:19:54.245
a little good is better than doing nothing at all.

432
00:19:54.865 --> 00:19:58.485
And I find this to be a very dangerous belief, right?

433
00:19:58.485 --> 00:20:00.605
Because it, it can make us part of the problem.

434
00:20:01.005 --> 00:20:04.575
I I have a very specific story from, um,

435
00:20:05.295 --> 00:20:07.815
actually my very first corporate gig, um,

436
00:20:07.885 --> 00:20:10.775
back in the mid 2010s that I actually got fired from,

437
00:20:10.785 --> 00:20:12.095
which was not very inspiring.

438
00:20:12.235 --> 00:20:15.575
But what basically happened is an employer brought me in

439
00:20:15.575 --> 00:20:16.695
and said, Lily, we want

440
00:20:16.695 --> 00:20:19.335
to deliver a really good allyship training.

441
00:20:19.515 --> 00:20:22.375
And I said, great. I do allyship training, I'm good at that.

442
00:20:23.035 --> 00:20:26.095
And then I said, but I don't know your workplace very well,

443
00:20:26.475 --> 00:20:28.415
and you're telling me that you don't really have any,

444
00:20:28.555 --> 00:20:30.135
you know, surveys or reports

445
00:20:30.235 --> 00:20:31.855
or anything about what your employees need.

446
00:20:31.875 --> 00:20:33.615
I'm just gonna do a little bit of a needs assessment

447
00:20:34.035 --> 00:20:37.135
to help me design the best allyship training that I can.

448
00:20:37.435 --> 00:20:38.815
And this company hemmed in hot,

449
00:20:38.815 --> 00:20:41.015
and they're like, okay, fine, you can talk to some people.

450
00:20:41.395 --> 00:20:42.935
So I went into their head headquarters,

451
00:20:43.205 --> 00:20:44.535
they were based in San Francisco.

452
00:20:44.535 --> 00:20:45.855
So I went up to San Francisco

453
00:20:46.515 --> 00:20:48.495
and I talked to about 20 people.

454
00:20:48.595 --> 00:20:51.455
It was a long day. And pretty much 15

455
00:20:51.455 --> 00:20:53.975
of those 20 people said, what?

456
00:20:54.295 --> 00:20:57.855
Allyship training, no one's asking for allyship training.

457
00:20:58.355 --> 00:21:01.255
Not a single one of us want allyship training.

458
00:21:01.645 --> 00:21:04.095
Like we have been trying to, you know, organize

459
00:21:04.115 --> 00:21:05.575
and advocate to our leadership

460
00:21:05.835 --> 00:21:07.415
to change these practices forever.

461
00:21:07.605 --> 00:21:09.295
Like, we know exactly what we want

462
00:21:09.295 --> 00:21:11.255
and it's not a damn allyship training.

463
00:21:11.325 --> 00:21:13.055
Like, what are you talking about?

464
00:21:13.055 --> 00:21:14.135
Like, why are you even here?

465
00:21:14.915 --> 00:21:16.335
So I go back, you know, I, I,

466
00:21:16.455 --> 00:21:18.095
I dutifully make a nice little report.

467
00:21:18.535 --> 00:21:20.015
I send it to the client and I'm like,

468
00:21:20.175 --> 00:21:22.535
I don't think an allyship training will solve your problem.

469
00:21:23.815 --> 00:21:26.175
I think you should listen to your employees.

470
00:21:26.175 --> 00:21:27.615
And what they say is, you know, like,

471
00:21:27.615 --> 00:21:30.495
these are some big barriers that I found out in just one day

472
00:21:30.495 --> 00:21:33.615
of talking to these people very consistently across all

473
00:21:33.615 --> 00:21:35.575
departments, across almost all demographics.

474
00:21:35.885 --> 00:21:37.335
They want your managers to be better.

475
00:21:37.555 --> 00:21:39.335
So if anything, you should be training your managers

476
00:21:39.795 --> 00:21:41.895
and they want some certain policies changed,

477
00:21:42.075 --> 00:21:43.975
so you should look into changing those policies.

478
00:21:44.195 --> 00:21:46.615
And they basically fired me on the spot for not sticking

479
00:21:46.615 --> 00:21:48.535
to contract and delivering an allyship training.

480
00:21:48.915 --> 00:21:51.615
And this was one of the very first lessons that I learned.

481
00:21:51.735 --> 00:21:52.935
I mean, wild, right?

482
00:21:52.955 --> 00:21:55.615
My first client, this was a big lesson that I learned

483
00:21:55.885 --> 00:21:57.455
that oftentimes just delivering

484
00:21:57.455 --> 00:22:00.895
what people want does not mean solving a real problem

485
00:22:01.035 --> 00:22:02.255
or delivering what they need.

486
00:22:02.915 --> 00:22:05.375
And from that engagement onwards, right?

487
00:22:05.565 --> 00:22:07.535
I've been very, very, very careful

488
00:22:07.635 --> 00:22:10.455
to scrutinize whether I am part of the problem

489
00:22:10.795 --> 00:22:12.815
or whether I'm helping my clients actually

490
00:22:12.815 --> 00:22:14.175
solve the real problem.

491
00:22:17.775 --> 00:22:19.705
<v Speaker 1>That is a hard story to process.</v>

492
00:22:20.505 --> 00:22:21.825
<v Speaker 2>I know</v>
<v Speaker 1>, I can,</v>

493
00:22:22.085 --> 00:22:24.505
but I can, I can see that, I can see it playing out.

494
00:22:24.745 --> 00:22:27.465
I absolutely, I hear you, I hear your

495
00:22:28.305 --> 00:22:30.105
pushback on my initial assertion,

496
00:22:30.105 --> 00:22:32.905
and I think it makes perfect sense.

497
00:22:33.745 --> 00:22:36.345
I think what I was thinking about when I made the initial

498
00:22:36.345 --> 00:22:37.825
comment, and I would love to get your thoughts on this

499
00:22:38.405 --> 00:22:41.025
in terms of can we use a workshop just

500
00:22:41.025 --> 00:22:43.985
to open up a conversation where my head was going was,

501
00:22:44.005 --> 00:22:45.385
and I've heard you talk about this

502
00:22:45.405 --> 00:22:47.945
before, Lily, this thing that's happening in,

503
00:22:48.005 --> 00:22:52.065
in some pockets where, you know, there are, there are a lot

504
00:22:52.125 --> 00:22:56.065
of things sort of challenging broad support

505
00:22:56.245 --> 00:22:57.345
for DEI right now.

506
00:22:57.605 --> 00:23:01.505
And one of those things in some pockets is people

507
00:23:01.805 --> 00:23:05.625
who are maybe not necessarily part of a minority

508
00:23:06.375 --> 00:23:08.305
feeling like they are,

509
00:23:08.535 --> 00:23:10.705
they are suddenly being labeled the bad guys

510
00:23:10.765 --> 00:23:11.825
or the bad gals, right?

511
00:23:11.885 --> 00:23:15.865
And, and if you look a certain way, you know, bluntly kind

512
00:23:15.865 --> 00:23:18.545
of being white, maybe cis male, uh,

513
00:23:18.885 --> 00:23:21.065
you owe everybody an apology, right?

514
00:23:21.065 --> 00:23:24.665
Mm-hmm. And, and DEI is really about pulling you down so

515
00:23:24.665 --> 00:23:26.945
that minorities can, can find their space.

516
00:23:27.845 --> 00:23:31.225
And I just, I wonder if for organizations where

517
00:23:31.825 --> 00:23:34.945
a dynamic like that could be a play explicitly

518
00:23:35.045 --> 00:23:38.585
or implicitly, if there's an opportunity for a workshop

519
00:23:38.685 --> 00:23:41.385
to just start to open the minds of people

520
00:23:41.445 --> 00:23:45.805
who are maybe feeling like for diversity to have air, I need

521
00:23:45.805 --> 00:23:46.845
to be smaller.

522
00:23:47.205 --> 00:23:48.405
I need to take a step back

523
00:23:48.465 --> 00:23:51.085
and sort of using a workshop as a conversation to say,

524
00:23:51.395 --> 00:23:53.285
this is for everybody to participate in.

525
00:23:53.435 --> 00:23:55.325
This is not about apologies.

526
00:23:55.475 --> 00:23:57.325
This is about how do we all come together

527
00:23:57.425 --> 00:23:59.045
and sort of stand shoulder to shoulder.

528
00:23:59.145 --> 00:24:02.205
And so I'm just curious what you think about that,

529
00:24:02.345 --> 00:24:04.445
and if you could just address, agree

530
00:24:04.465 --> 00:24:06.205
or disagree with my assertion

531
00:24:06.205 --> 00:24:08.205
and just address what you are seeing and hearing.

532
00:24:08.675 --> 00:24:11.085
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think there are,</v>

533
00:24:11.495 --> 00:24:13.645
there are like two or three parts of this and,

534
00:24:13.665 --> 00:24:16.165
and they're related, but they're not all the same thing.

535
00:24:16.585 --> 00:24:20.805
So one part of this is, is it true that, you know, members

536
00:24:20.985 --> 00:24:23.085
of let's say historically advantaged

537
00:24:23.225 --> 00:24:26.245
or majority groups like cisgender, heterosexual Christian,

538
00:24:26.405 --> 00:24:30.205
straight white men, right, um, are feeling demonized

539
00:24:30.905 --> 00:24:32.565
by mainstream DEI efforts?

540
00:24:32.825 --> 00:24:34.165
Yes, the answer is yes.

541
00:24:34.175 --> 00:24:37.805
There, there was a research study done, um, gosh, at this,

542
00:24:37.805 --> 00:24:41.725
this 0.4 or five years ago that found that 70%

543
00:24:42.065 --> 00:24:45.085
of white male leaders feel like they do not have a space

544
00:24:45.105 --> 00:24:47.125
and are not wanted within DEI work.

545
00:24:47.425 --> 00:24:49.085
And that is one of the major factors

546
00:24:49.115 --> 00:24:50.445
that drives their disengagement.

547
00:24:50.705 --> 00:24:52.245
Um, despite them wanting to engage.

548
00:24:52.315 --> 00:24:53.845
There's lots of research on this.

549
00:24:54.225 --> 00:24:56.525
Um, and, you know, we can talk about the root of

550
00:24:56.525 --> 00:24:59.485
that problem, how it exists, why, you know,

551
00:24:59.585 --> 00:25:01.085
why it exists, how we can change it.

552
00:25:01.385 --> 00:25:03.605
That's one thing I think it does exist.

553
00:25:04.305 --> 00:25:07.365
The next thing that, that I heard you talk about is,

554
00:25:07.745 --> 00:25:10.725
is it possible that a workshop can start this conversation

555
00:25:10.825 --> 00:25:12.965
and sort of change this perception?

556
00:25:14.165 --> 00:25:16.765
I think it's possible, but on the other hand,

557
00:25:16.985 --> 00:25:19.805
why does it have to be a workshop is the thing, right?

558
00:25:19.875 --> 00:25:24.365
Because what I see when I go into companies is yes,

559
00:25:24.565 --> 00:25:27.205
I do see this dynamic happening pretty often,

560
00:25:27.945 --> 00:25:30.085
and these days, maybe I'm biased

561
00:25:30.085 --> 00:25:32.085
because I don't deliver many one-off workshops

562
00:25:32.085 --> 00:25:33.565
because I personally don't think that they

563
00:25:34.185 --> 00:25:35.685
are particularly effective.

564
00:25:35.965 --> 00:25:39.085
I spend time working with companies over months and months

565
00:25:39.085 --> 00:25:41.085
and months to get at the root of those beliefs.

566
00:25:41.515 --> 00:25:43.365
Like I talk to, you know, members

567
00:25:43.365 --> 00:25:47.085
of marginalized communities, I talk to chief DEI officers,

568
00:25:47.685 --> 00:25:49.045
I talk to HR leaders,

569
00:25:50.055 --> 00:25:52.915
and we spend quite a long time asking ourselves like,

570
00:25:52.975 --> 00:25:56.955
how is it that we've created this perception that DEI

571
00:25:57.465 --> 00:25:59.315
doesn't need or doesn't want,

572
00:25:59.575 --> 00:26:03.355
or is actively demonizing cisgender, heterosexual white men?

573
00:26:03.855 --> 00:26:08.595
And to fix those problems usually requires interventions

574
00:26:08.595 --> 00:26:11.715
that last far more than 60 minutes, right?

575
00:26:11.785 --> 00:26:15.235
Like, we need to talk about communication strategies,

576
00:26:15.575 --> 00:26:17.755
we need to talk about coalition building.

577
00:26:18.335 --> 00:26:20.035
We need to talk about, you know,

578
00:26:20.035 --> 00:26:22.035
ways we can design this work so

579
00:26:22.035 --> 00:26:24.435
that they take in feedback from everyone.

580
00:26:24.455 --> 00:26:27.195
We need more participatory decision making processes.

581
00:26:27.425 --> 00:26:30.915
Like each one of these interventions takes weeks

582
00:26:31.215 --> 00:26:32.435
or months to create.

583
00:26:33.455 --> 00:26:37.195
Can workshops be a part of those timelines? Yeah, sure.

584
00:26:37.195 --> 00:26:42.015
Totally. But I have, I'm trying, I'm trying to,

585
00:26:42.315 --> 00:26:43.445
to think if this is true.

586
00:26:44.125 --> 00:26:47.525
I don't believe I have ever delivered a 60 minute workshop

587
00:26:47.755 --> 00:26:52.445
that has claimed to even start a conversation about

588
00:26:53.365 --> 00:26:55.005
changing the, the,

589
00:26:55.145 --> 00:26:57.445
the conversation about cisgender heterosexual white men.

590
00:26:57.745 --> 00:27:01.965
The reason being is that I know that the factors creating

591
00:27:01.965 --> 00:27:05.045
that dynamic are far more entrenched than

592
00:27:05.045 --> 00:27:06.445
what I can change in 60 minutes.

593
00:27:07.025 --> 00:27:10.755
And so will people get a kick outta that workshop?

594
00:27:10.785 --> 00:27:12.115
Will some, you know, cisgender,

595
00:27:12.115 --> 00:27:14.675
heterosexual white men feel validated if they show up?

596
00:27:14.675 --> 00:27:16.315
Yeah, certainly, right?

597
00:27:16.735 --> 00:27:20.875
And what will happen if they feel validated, they feel good,

598
00:27:20.935 --> 00:27:23.715
and then the organization goes right back to the status quo

599
00:27:23.735 --> 00:27:26.715
as soon as I leave, I think that will actually be worse.

600
00:27:27.345 --> 00:27:29.635
Like, I think that actually create more harm

601
00:27:30.625 --> 00:27:32.205
if I set them up to fail.

602
00:27:32.225 --> 00:27:34.565
If, if I say no, everyone, like, we can,

603
00:27:34.665 --> 00:27:36.765
we can totally change the way we're thinking about this.

604
00:27:36.765 --> 00:27:38.485
We can totally use new language.

605
00:27:38.555 --> 00:27:40.365
Like we can make everyone feel,

606
00:27:40.665 --> 00:27:42.165
you know, included and involved.

607
00:27:42.855 --> 00:27:45.555
And then I leave, I collect my paycheck, people tell me

608
00:27:45.555 --> 00:27:46.755
how much they like the workshop.

609
00:27:47.105 --> 00:27:50.195
Like what if a week after they don't change anything?

610
00:27:50.735 --> 00:27:53.435
And then the white men who showed up to that workshop

611
00:27:53.435 --> 00:27:55.115
and are expecting that things will change,

612
00:27:55.775 --> 00:27:57.995
get extra pissed off that things haven't changed.

613
00:27:59.285 --> 00:28:01.245
I think there's a risk of greater backlash,

614
00:28:01.545 --> 00:28:02.725
but I'm not there to see it.

615
00:28:03.595 --> 00:28:05.935
And so I would ask myself, right?

616
00:28:05.965 --> 00:28:07.935
Like, I agree that that's a challenge that needs

617
00:28:07.935 --> 00:28:09.695
to be solved, but why a workshop?

618
00:28:09.765 --> 00:28:12.935
Like, why are we so invested in this bite-sized

619
00:28:12.935 --> 00:28:14.215
60 minute intervention?

620
00:28:14.365 --> 00:28:17.655
Like, there's so many other things we can do, right?

621
00:28:17.725 --> 00:28:20.295
Like so many other, like, at the very least, like

622
00:28:21.005 --> 00:28:23.345
two workshops, three workshops, right?

623
00:28:23.775 --> 00:28:26.505
Sell something that's not just right, this like sexy

624
00:28:27.045 --> 00:28:28.825
one time thing, because I know

625
00:28:28.825 --> 00:28:29.985
that that's where the demand lies.

626
00:28:30.505 --> 00:28:32.825
I, I would argue, I would challenge

627
00:28:33.295 --> 00:28:36.785
that if we are actually committed to impact, we need

628
00:28:36.785 --> 00:28:39.425
to take responsibility for what happens after we leave.

629
00:28:40.295 --> 00:28:42.105
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you got it. You win</v>

630
00:28:42.105 --> 00:28:42.105
<v Speaker 2>.</v>

631
00:28:43.305 --> 00:28:44.785
I mean, look, I'm not trying to win.

632
00:28:45.105 --> 00:28:46.745
I just have a strong opinion about this.

633
00:28:46.965 --> 00:28:48.905
And I think if we are in the business

634
00:28:48.905 --> 00:28:50.585
of providing 60 minute workshops, right?

635
00:28:50.585 --> 00:28:53.545
Because look, some people can't change their business model.

636
00:28:53.625 --> 00:28:56.265
I know lots of people that do 60 minute workshops at the

637
00:28:56.265 --> 00:28:58.305
very least, have higher standards

638
00:28:58.305 --> 00:28:59.705
for when you say yes to a client.

639
00:28:59.935 --> 00:29:01.065
Something that I used

640
00:29:01.065 --> 00:29:03.905
to do when I delivered 60 minute workshops was to say,

641
00:29:04.215 --> 00:29:06.345
give me a plan for what you're going

642
00:29:06.345 --> 00:29:08.385
to do in the three months following the workshop.

643
00:29:08.405 --> 00:29:10.065
And if they could not give me a plan,

644
00:29:10.145 --> 00:29:11.305
I didn't do the workshop.

645
00:29:12.065 --> 00:29:14.155
Like even doing something like that, right?

646
00:29:14.185 --> 00:29:16.435
Like even doing a small thing like that

647
00:29:16.495 --> 00:29:19.355
to provide accountability is better than what we have now.

648
00:29:19.575 --> 00:29:22.995
So like, there's lots of, of opportunities for everybody

649
00:29:23.015 --> 00:29:24.075
to be improving this work.

650
00:29:24.375 --> 00:29:25.915
I'm not telling everyone doing workshop

651
00:29:25.915 --> 00:29:27.195
that you've gotta pick a different line of work.

652
00:29:27.695 --> 00:29:30.195
<v Speaker 1>No, I, I think it's really fair for me, it's sort</v>

653
00:29:30.475 --> 00:29:33.555
of analogous to companies running engagement surveys

654
00:29:33.555 --> 00:29:35.315
and not actioning against them.

655
00:29:35.495 --> 00:29:38.195
And I tell them it is more damaging to ask

656
00:29:38.255 --> 00:29:40.035
and not respond than exactly.

657
00:29:40.735 --> 00:29:43.125
<v Speaker 2>You just shouldn't run a survey if you're, you're not pre,</v>

658
00:29:43.145 --> 00:29:44.445
you know, committed to changing things.

659
00:29:44.555 --> 00:29:46.085
It's exactly the same logic, right?

660
00:29:46.085 --> 00:29:48.045
Sometimes doing a little bit

661
00:29:48.045 --> 00:29:49.645
of something is worse than doing nothing.

662
00:29:50.535 --> 00:29:52.345
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. No, I think, I think that's fair.</v>

663
00:29:52.885 --> 00:29:54.345
So we're talking about impact,

664
00:29:54.355 --> 00:29:56.225
we're talking about the importance of actually changing

665
00:29:56.785 --> 00:29:59.585
outcomes and experiences rather than just performing.

666
00:30:00.335 --> 00:30:02.985
What are some things in your, in your experience,

667
00:30:03.215 --> 00:30:05.785
whether personally for yourself and

668
00:30:05.805 --> 00:30:09.705
or as you see client organizations, when we talk about

669
00:30:10.665 --> 00:30:12.185
shifting the experience of inclusion

670
00:30:12.205 --> 00:30:14.065
and belonging, you know, I find

671
00:30:14.065 --> 00:30:16.865
that not everybody even knows what that means.

672
00:30:17.285 --> 00:30:19.865
Not everybody even knows how to answer the question.

673
00:30:20.125 --> 00:30:22.905
Do you experience a sense of inclusion and belonging?

674
00:30:22.905 --> 00:30:24.185
Mm-hmm . I I sometimes will get

675
00:30:24.185 --> 00:30:25.305
people saying, I, I don't know.

676
00:30:25.305 --> 00:30:27.545
Like, what, what does that even exactly mean?

677
00:30:27.685 --> 00:30:30.985
And so as we think about, so I think what you

678
00:30:30.985 --> 00:30:32.145
and I are talking about is the

679
00:30:32.145 --> 00:30:33.505
importance of impact and outcomes.

680
00:30:33.685 --> 00:30:35.385
But in order for organizations

681
00:30:35.385 --> 00:30:38.905
or people to be able to assess impact, they have

682
00:30:38.905 --> 00:30:41.185
to understand what we're even asking in the first time.

683
00:30:41.185 --> 00:30:42.905
<v Speaker 2>Which outcomes, right? What impact,</v>

684
00:30:42.905 --> 00:30:44.185
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So

685
00:30:44.185 --> 00:30:45.185
<v Speaker 1>How</v>
<v Speaker 2>Do</v>

686
00:30:45.185 --> 00:30:47.305
<v Speaker 1>You, how do you help people understand</v>

687
00:30:47.445 --> 00:30:49.385
or characterize their own experiences

688
00:30:49.445 --> 00:30:50.785
of inclusion and belonging?

689
00:30:50.805 --> 00:30:52.665
How do you describe those? Yeah.

690
00:30:53.055 --> 00:30:57.145
<v Speaker 2>Well, this goes back to, um, I think DEI has a bit</v>

691
00:30:57.145 --> 00:31:00.985
of a jargon problem in the sense that since gosh, right,

692
00:31:00.985 --> 00:31:02.945
since the nineties, we've been defining

693
00:31:02.965 --> 00:31:05.025
and redefining these words every single day.

694
00:31:05.025 --> 00:31:06.705
And still no one knows how to define them.

695
00:31:07.125 --> 00:31:10.185
Um, inclusion, for example, when I was writing my,

696
00:31:10.405 --> 00:31:13.425
my third book, um, actually the one right behind me,

697
00:31:13.745 --> 00:31:16.905
DEID deconstructed, I was looking up definitions

698
00:31:16.905 --> 00:31:19.065
of inclusion because I was curious what I found,

699
00:31:19.485 --> 00:31:23.905
and no, no joke, it's, it's in the book, I find a definition

700
00:31:23.905 --> 00:31:25.985
that says inclusion is the presence of belonging.

701
00:31:25.985 --> 00:31:27.505
And I was like, oh, yeah, really nice.

702
00:31:27.685 --> 00:31:28.785
And then I looked up belonging.

703
00:31:28.785 --> 00:31:30.665
It said, belonging is the presence of inclusion.

704
00:31:31.205 --> 00:31:33.905
And I, like, I literally remember like sitting

705
00:31:33.965 --> 00:31:36.465
and just laughing for like two minutes, right?

706
00:31:36.545 --> 00:31:40.705
I was like, this, this is like absolutely in part, like,

707
00:31:40.705 --> 00:31:43.545
like no one, no one can parse this, right?

708
00:31:43.545 --> 00:31:45.745
Like, not even the people writing about it know what it is.

709
00:31:46.045 --> 00:31:48.755
So I did a deep dive, um,

710
00:31:48.825 --> 00:31:51.195
looking into social science research

711
00:31:51.195 --> 00:31:53.195
because, you know, there's no way

712
00:31:53.195 --> 00:31:54.955
that like a social scientist could get away

713
00:31:54.955 --> 00:31:55.955
with saying anything like that.

714
00:31:56.295 --> 00:31:59.235
And it turns out there's lots of better definitions.

715
00:31:59.775 --> 00:32:03.275
Uh, for example, for inclusion, one of the ones

716
00:32:03.275 --> 00:32:06.235
that I really liked is breaking down inclusion into a set

717
00:32:06.235 --> 00:32:09.635
of three smaller outcomes, which is feeling respected,

718
00:32:09.945 --> 00:32:12.155
feeling valued, and feeling safe.

719
00:32:13.145 --> 00:32:15.085
And so if people felt a sense of respect,

720
00:32:15.105 --> 00:32:16.445
if people felt like they were valued

721
00:32:16.465 --> 00:32:18.925
and people felt like they were safe, they felt included,

722
00:32:19.475 --> 00:32:20.925
each of those things are measurable.

723
00:32:21.265 --> 00:32:23.845
You can ask people about their perceptions of respect,

724
00:32:24.025 --> 00:32:25.885
and people are pretty accurate about that, right?

725
00:32:25.885 --> 00:32:27.045
If you feel disrespected,

726
00:32:27.045 --> 00:32:28.845
you're gonna say you feel disrespected.

727
00:32:29.185 --> 00:32:31.245
Um, you can ask about their perception of value.

728
00:32:31.245 --> 00:32:34.245
People are going to compare themselves to their coworkers

729
00:32:34.265 --> 00:32:37.245
and how they see that their contributions or their words

730
00:32:37.625 --> 00:32:39.410
or their performance is valued.

731
00:32:39.745 --> 00:32:41.845
You can ask about safety, both physical safety

732
00:32:41.945 --> 00:32:43.205
and psychological safety.

733
00:32:43.495 --> 00:32:46.165
Those are very well defined in the research literature.

734
00:32:46.775 --> 00:32:50.155
And so for me, I don't, you know, concern myself if it,

735
00:32:50.225 --> 00:32:52.195
with asking, if inclusion is belonging

736
00:32:52.195 --> 00:32:54.155
or belonging is inclusion, I just say,

737
00:32:54.155 --> 00:32:55.875
look, how do you measure these things?

738
00:32:56.445 --> 00:32:58.715
Right? And there's lots of good research

739
00:32:58.715 --> 00:33:00.475
that actually tells us how to measure these things.

740
00:33:00.735 --> 00:33:03.195
So sometimes with one, one client, they were just like,

741
00:33:03.265 --> 00:33:04.675
then why do we need to call it inclusion?

742
00:33:04.695 --> 00:33:05.835
And I'm like, yeah, good point.

743
00:33:06.135 --> 00:33:08.855
You don't have to, if you don't want to say

744
00:33:08.855 --> 00:33:12.455
that you value helping people feel respected, valued,

745
00:33:13.115 --> 00:33:14.855
and safe, and then done.

746
00:33:15.075 --> 00:33:17.455
If you get high respect, high value

747
00:33:17.455 --> 00:33:19.895
and high safety for everyone, congrats.

748
00:33:19.895 --> 00:33:21.215
You've basically achieved inclusion.

749
00:33:21.235 --> 00:33:22.935
You don't even have to call it that, right?

750
00:33:22.965 --> 00:33:26.135
Like, like oftentimes we can get so wrapped up in the words

751
00:33:26.135 --> 00:33:27.455
that we don't achieve the outcomes

752
00:33:27.455 --> 00:33:30.415
that these words are trying to steer us towards, right?

753
00:33:30.435 --> 00:33:32.575
And, and, and I've written extensively about this.

754
00:33:32.575 --> 00:33:34.855
I've talked about how we measure these things.

755
00:33:35.355 --> 00:33:38.455
Um, and I think a common takeaway is that like, well, Lily,

756
00:33:38.455 --> 00:33:40.375
then why don't we, why do we spend

757
00:33:40.375 --> 00:33:42.375
so much time talking about the words to begin

758
00:33:42.375 --> 00:33:44.055
with when we can just make things better

759
00:33:44.155 --> 00:33:45.375
and achieve some of these outcomes?

760
00:33:45.395 --> 00:33:47.535
And I say like, right, right, right.

761
00:33:47.535 --> 00:33:48.935
Like, like, this is the light bulb moment.

762
00:33:49.445 --> 00:33:51.735
Like, why are we talking so much about the words

763
00:33:52.435 --> 00:33:54.895
and doing nothing to change people's actual

764
00:33:54.895 --> 00:33:56.615
experiences that needs to change?

765
00:33:56.995 --> 00:33:59.375
<v Speaker 1>That's incredible. And that's, so, that is</v>

766
00:33:59.395 --> 00:34:01.215
so much more clear, those three things

767
00:34:01.215 --> 00:34:02.775
that you just just described.

768
00:34:02.775 --> 00:34:06.335
But not only that, they almost separate the experience from

769
00:34:06.395 --> 00:34:08.335
the whole diversity label in the first place,

770
00:34:08.335 --> 00:34:11.735
because presumably everybody, no matter what they look like,

771
00:34:11.935 --> 00:34:15.495
what groups they belong to deserve to feel valued,

772
00:34:15.765 --> 00:34:17.055
safe, and respected.

773
00:34:17.055 --> 00:34:20.895
Yeah. Um, that's a, I feel like we've just touched on

774
00:34:20.895 --> 00:34:24.375
that very quickly, but that to me feels like a, a bit of a,

775
00:34:24.575 --> 00:34:25.895
a watershed moment for me.

776
00:34:25.915 --> 00:34:29.375
It just, it shifts everything out of this realm of like,

777
00:34:29.555 --> 00:34:32.335
oh my gosh, I'm so tired of talking about the,

778
00:34:32.435 --> 00:34:34.935
the minorities and the, it's like, no, no, let's,

779
00:34:34.945 --> 00:34:36.055
let's talk about humanity.

780
00:34:36.215 --> 00:34:37.495
I mean, I kind of feel like

781
00:34:37.495 --> 00:34:39.855
that's the direction that you're heading in.

782
00:34:39.855 --> 00:34:42.815
And when we all feel those things in equal measures,

783
00:34:43.605 --> 00:34:47.255
what groups we identify with matters less almost.

784
00:34:47.685 --> 00:34:50.615
It's just, do we all feel this experience?

785
00:34:51.075 --> 00:34:53.095
And, and presumably there may be certain groups

786
00:34:53.125 --> 00:34:56.055
that feel it less, and that's, you know, where the,

787
00:34:56.075 --> 00:34:57.335
the energy needs to go.

788
00:34:57.515 --> 00:35:00.615
Mm-hmm . But you almost stripped some of the, um,

789
00:35:01.695 --> 00:35:03.975
I don't know, some of what I feel like makes people feel

790
00:35:03.975 --> 00:35:05.495
prickly about these conversations.

791
00:35:05.495 --> 00:35:06.695
You've kind of stripped it out.

792
00:35:07.445 --> 00:35:11.015
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So, so this is, this is not my idea,</v>

793
00:35:11.155 --> 00:35:14.375
but there's some really brilliant work coming out of the,

794
00:35:14.555 --> 00:35:17.935
um, the Berkeley School of Othering and Belonging,

795
00:35:18.115 --> 00:35:21.615
and a particular leader, John Johnny A. Powell, okay, from

796
00:35:21.615 --> 00:35:22.895
that school who came up with this concept

797
00:35:22.895 --> 00:35:24.455
called targeted universalism.

798
00:35:25.235 --> 00:35:28.175
And targeted universalism is really powerful.

799
00:35:28.195 --> 00:35:29.895
It relates a lot to what we're talking about.

800
00:35:30.005 --> 00:35:33.615
Because instead of asking which group deserves

801
00:35:34.555 --> 00:35:36.485
support, which group is worthy,

802
00:35:36.575 --> 00:35:40.085
which group deserves DEI work it instead said,

803
00:35:40.385 --> 00:35:43.725
it instead says, all of us deserve these outcomes,

804
00:35:44.425 --> 00:35:47.405
but we can learn from individual groups' experiences

805
00:35:47.465 --> 00:35:48.845
to design better for everyone.

806
00:35:49.515 --> 00:35:52.125
Because I think DEI has been caught

807
00:35:52.555 --> 00:35:54.885
between these two opposing conversations,

808
00:35:54.885 --> 00:35:56.125
which I believe aren't helpful.

809
00:35:56.385 --> 00:35:58.965
One is, I don't see race, I don't see identity.

810
00:35:59.405 --> 00:36:02.005
Identity doesn't matter. We're all one race. The human race.

811
00:36:02.485 --> 00:36:05.565
I think that's not helpful because it obscures the real

812
00:36:05.565 --> 00:36:07.885
differences in experience that exist in our society.

813
00:36:08.185 --> 00:36:11.125
But then on the other side, we have like, oh,

814
00:36:11.125 --> 00:36:12.485
identities are everything,

815
00:36:12.785 --> 00:36:14.285
and there's this hierarchy

816
00:36:14.285 --> 00:36:17.085
of which identities are more versus less oppressed.

817
00:36:17.265 --> 00:36:19.045
So we're gonna play oppression Olympics

818
00:36:19.305 --> 00:36:21.725
and count how many marginalized identities you have.

819
00:36:21.945 --> 00:36:23.605
If you have enough, then you're allowed to talk.

820
00:36:23.745 --> 00:36:25.525
If you don't have enough, then you need to shut up.

821
00:36:26.265 --> 00:36:29.225
I think that's just so, so backwards, so harmful.

822
00:36:29.725 --> 00:36:32.225
And it also keeps us from actually achieving any change,

823
00:36:32.225 --> 00:36:33.425
because we're all busy arguing

824
00:36:33.425 --> 00:36:35.985
with each other about who's more oppressed, right?

825
00:36:36.585 --> 00:36:40.425
I think this, this perspective of we need to recognize

826
00:36:40.455 --> 00:36:41.905
that identity is valid

827
00:36:42.005 --> 00:36:46.105
and powerful so that we can improve things for everyone, is

828
00:36:46.125 --> 00:36:48.905
how we bridge these two ineffective approaches.

829
00:36:49.365 --> 00:36:52.145
And I think talking about outcomes, right?

830
00:36:52.145 --> 00:36:56.305
Talking about, let's say safety, uh, respect, uh, value,

831
00:36:56.875 --> 00:36:58.025
these universal things,

832
00:36:58.085 --> 00:36:59.145
but also being open

833
00:36:59.245 --> 00:37:02.705
to identifying identity related barriers, right?

834
00:37:03.015 --> 00:37:04.825
Like, this is, like, that's

835
00:37:04.825 --> 00:37:07.745
what DEI work should have been from the start.

836
00:37:08.445 --> 00:37:12.065
And so when people say, like, Lily, I think, you know,

837
00:37:12.065 --> 00:37:13.345
this inclusion work is,

838
00:37:13.525 --> 00:37:15.305
is focusing too much on certain groups,

839
00:37:15.605 --> 00:37:16.945
you can just go right back to them

840
00:37:16.965 --> 00:37:20.945
and go like, okay, well, um, is there anything we can do

841
00:37:20.965 --> 00:37:25.065
to help you feel more, uh, valued, respected, and safe?

842
00:37:25.605 --> 00:37:27.945
And I guarantee it'll throw people for a loop.

843
00:37:28.175 --> 00:37:32.385
They're like, what? Like me, like, but I'm a cis white man.

844
00:37:33.145 --> 00:37:36.065
I thought it doesn't matter as much that I feel, you know,

845
00:37:36.095 --> 00:37:37.265
safe, respected, and valued.

846
00:37:37.265 --> 00:37:38.905
And I'm like, what are you talking about? Right?

847
00:37:38.975 --> 00:37:42.065
Like, everyone deserves to feel safe, respected, and valued.

848
00:37:42.445 --> 00:37:44.345
And if you're having a really good time

849
00:37:45.205 --> 00:37:46.885
and you already feel those things,

850
00:37:47.075 --> 00:37:49.445
then help me understand why you feel those things so

851
00:37:49.445 --> 00:37:51.005
that I can apply that to everyone else.

852
00:37:51.345 --> 00:37:53.005
And if you're not having a really good time,

853
00:37:53.005 --> 00:37:54.125
maybe you don't feel safe,

854
00:37:54.125 --> 00:37:56.205
maybe you don't feel valued, what would help?

855
00:37:56.785 --> 00:37:59.325
And then we go around to every single, you know,

856
00:37:59.325 --> 00:38:00.405
marginalized group also

857
00:38:00.405 --> 00:38:01.645
to say like, Hey, what are the barriers?

858
00:38:01.985 --> 00:38:03.565
And we learn from those experiences.

859
00:38:03.745 --> 00:38:06.645
Say, Hey, everyone, maybe for example,

860
00:38:07.185 --> 00:38:09.365
no one in this entire workplace feels valued

861
00:38:09.555 --> 00:38:11.845
because of this one thing that we can change over here.

862
00:38:12.345 --> 00:38:13.925
Or maybe some people feel safe,

863
00:38:14.345 --> 00:38:15.725
but other people don't feel safe

864
00:38:15.725 --> 00:38:18.005
because this policy isn't being applied equally.

865
00:38:18.555 --> 00:38:20.005
Gosh, we, we gotta fix that, right?

866
00:38:20.005 --> 00:38:22.445
Like, this takes this entire conversation away from

867
00:38:22.445 --> 00:38:25.285
oppression Olympics towards actual problem solving

868
00:38:25.675 --> 00:38:27.405
that makes everyone feel like they have

869
00:38:27.405 --> 00:38:28.645
something to benefit from.

870
00:38:28.985 --> 00:38:31.045
And like, that's, I mean, that's

871
00:38:31.045 --> 00:38:32.765
what this work should have been from the start, right?

872
00:38:32.825 --> 00:38:35.325
I'm not saying anything controversial, it's just

873
00:38:35.925 --> 00:38:38.165
I think some DEI work has drifted from this vision.

874
00:38:38.555 --> 00:38:39.805
Like that's what it should have been.

875
00:38:40.545 --> 00:38:42.525
<v Speaker 1>I'm feeling a little speechless, Lily,</v>

876
00:38:42.525 --> 00:38:44.925
which is not an experience that is common for me.

877
00:38:45.145 --> 00:38:46.285
So thank you.

878
00:38:46.485 --> 00:38:48.485
I don't always listen to my own interviews,

879
00:38:48.505 --> 00:38:50.525
but I know I will be listening to this one.

880
00:38:50.585 --> 00:38:53.965
So thank you so much for all of this incredible insight.

881
00:38:54.525 --> 00:38:58.165
I have one more question for you before we start to close.

882
00:38:58.675 --> 00:39:01.285
There's so many rich ideas in this conversation,

883
00:39:01.505 --> 00:39:05.125
but for anybody who's listening right now, sitting

884
00:39:05.845 --> 00:39:08.405
anywhere on an org chart, anywhere in an organization

885
00:39:09.295 --> 00:39:12.205
who's having an experience of, well,

886
00:39:12.445 --> 00:39:13.965
I don't feel all of those things.

887
00:39:14.125 --> 00:39:16.925
I don't always feel safe or respected or valued.

888
00:39:17.205 --> 00:39:19.405
I feel marginalized for whatever reasons.

889
00:39:20.795 --> 00:39:22.565
What, what do you encourage people

890
00:39:23.025 --> 00:39:25.245
who maybe are feeling a little bit helpless

891
00:39:25.305 --> 00:39:26.885
and a little bit hungry for something?

892
00:39:27.415 --> 00:39:31.165
Where can we start if we don't feel like we necessarily have

893
00:39:31.245 --> 00:39:34.045
a lot of formal authority or power in our workplace?

894
00:39:35.005 --> 00:39:37.405
<v Speaker 2>Organize, organize, organize, organize.</v>

895
00:39:37.965 --> 00:39:41.165
I think, um, a lot of mainstream DEI has kind

896
00:39:41.165 --> 00:39:42.405
of been self-help unified.

897
00:39:42.905 --> 00:39:46.405
And so the advice that we tend to hear is like,

898
00:39:46.595 --> 00:39:49.685
here are five things you can do as an individual

899
00:39:50.145 --> 00:39:52.045
to feel more safe, respected, and valued.

900
00:39:52.115 --> 00:39:54.165
There's lots of advice like that on the internet.

901
00:39:54.405 --> 00:39:55.925
I can tell you to power pose more

902
00:39:55.925 --> 00:39:56.965
before your meetings, right?

903
00:39:56.965 --> 00:39:58.085
Maybe that'll make you feel better.

904
00:39:58.595 --> 00:40:01.085
Look, that advice has been talked to death.

905
00:40:01.605 --> 00:40:04.125
I think what we haven't talked enough about is the power

906
00:40:04.125 --> 00:40:05.365
that comes from the collective.

907
00:40:05.705 --> 00:40:08.685
And I would say if you don't feel safe, respected,

908
00:40:08.685 --> 00:40:10.205
or valued, you are not alone.

909
00:40:10.705 --> 00:40:11.925
You have other colleagues

910
00:40:11.925 --> 00:40:14.045
who likely don't feel safe, respected, or valued.

911
00:40:14.385 --> 00:40:17.325
And so one of the most powerful things you can do is

912
00:40:17.325 --> 00:40:19.965
to ask yourself and to ask others why?

913
00:40:20.875 --> 00:40:25.725
Like, why is the question of the effective DEI practitioner?

914
00:40:25.725 --> 00:40:28.365
That's, that's what I do. I go into companies and I ask why.

915
00:40:28.705 --> 00:40:31.125
But you can do that without me. You can do that yourself.

916
00:40:31.505 --> 00:40:33.605
You can say like, what's going on here?

917
00:40:33.905 --> 00:40:37.565
Why do I feel unsafe? Like, is it just me?

918
00:40:37.665 --> 00:40:40.525
Who else is feeling unsafe? Why are we all feeling unsafe?

919
00:40:40.585 --> 00:40:42.245
Why are we all feeling unvalued?

920
00:40:42.385 --> 00:40:44.965
What's wrong with this workplace?

921
00:40:45.335 --> 00:40:47.445
Which things are not working as intended?

922
00:40:47.465 --> 00:40:48.765
Or if they are working as intended,

923
00:40:48.825 --> 00:40:51.405
how do we shift what's actually happening here?

924
00:40:52.235 --> 00:40:55.295
And that's how we start to build movements.

925
00:40:55.315 --> 00:40:57.535
That's how we build coalitions.

926
00:40:57.875 --> 00:40:59.535
And it turns out right,

927
00:40:59.535 --> 00:41:00.815
especially if we get away from this

928
00:41:00.815 --> 00:41:02.255
oppression Olympics nonsense, right?

929
00:41:02.485 --> 00:41:05.855
That the number of people, the, the groups of people

930
00:41:05.995 --> 00:41:07.455
who have something to benefit

931
00:41:08.115 --> 00:41:09.135
or who have something

932
00:41:09.135 --> 00:41:11.255
to gain from changing the status quo was

933
00:41:11.415 --> 00:41:12.455
probably more people than you think.

934
00:41:13.325 --> 00:41:15.865
I'm sure there are lots of people who feel unsafe, lots

935
00:41:15.865 --> 00:41:18.505
of people who feel undervalued, disrespected.

936
00:41:18.885 --> 00:41:20.345
And so if you can understand why

937
00:41:20.405 --> 00:41:22.145
and you can find other colleagues

938
00:41:22.185 --> 00:41:25.265
who share those experiences, you can organize, right?

939
00:41:25.485 --> 00:41:27.665
And I'm talking, you can do so formally, right?

940
00:41:27.685 --> 00:41:29.305
You can, you can form a labor union.

941
00:41:29.565 --> 00:41:30.745
You can do so informally.

942
00:41:30.965 --> 00:41:34.485
You can join a DEI council, participate in ERG, um,

943
00:41:35.225 --> 00:41:37.485
you can lobby your, uh, leaders.

944
00:41:37.665 --> 00:41:38.925
You can have a conversation.

945
00:41:38.945 --> 00:41:40.445
You can start a dialogue, right?

946
00:41:40.465 --> 00:41:42.285
You can  post on social media, right?

947
00:41:42.465 --> 00:41:45.645
But like by coming together in the collective

948
00:41:45.645 --> 00:41:48.285
and to turn your experience, your singular experience

949
00:41:48.905 --> 00:41:52.825
of feeling excluded into a collective experience

950
00:41:52.825 --> 00:41:56.025
of creating change, like everyone can do that today.

951
00:41:56.125 --> 00:41:57.745
You can do that now, right?

952
00:41:57.965 --> 00:42:01.745
You just have to recognize that going at it alone

953
00:42:02.405 --> 00:42:03.985
is not going to change anything.

954
00:42:04.535 --> 00:42:05.945
Self-help is not the answer

955
00:42:06.045 --> 00:42:07.825
to these big systemic inequities.

956
00:42:07.935 --> 00:42:10.145
It's organizing, it's collective action.

957
00:42:10.765 --> 00:42:14.185
And your colleagues have more in common

958
00:42:15.155 --> 00:42:16.485
with you, right?

959
00:42:16.995 --> 00:42:19.085
Than they are all different.

960
00:42:19.155 --> 00:42:22.405
Like, that's I think, one of the biggest takeaways, which is

961
00:42:22.405 --> 00:42:23.685
that like, we are all different.

962
00:42:23.685 --> 00:42:24.845
We all have different identities

963
00:42:24.985 --> 00:42:28.005
and we share so much in common, right?

964
00:42:28.145 --> 00:42:30.205
If we recognize that we can organize,

965
00:42:30.225 --> 00:42:31.805
we can make a difference, we can make change.

966
00:42:32.225 --> 00:42:33.765
And that's how this work needs to happen.

967
00:42:34.345 --> 00:42:35.965
<v Speaker 1>That's amazing. Lily,</v>

968
00:42:35.965 --> 00:42:39.005
before we close, is there anything that I haven't asked you

969
00:42:39.005 --> 00:42:40.325
that feels important

970
00:42:40.435 --> 00:42:42.165
that you wanna leave listeners with today?

971
00:42:42.865 --> 00:42:44.365
<v Speaker 2>You know, everyone always asks that,</v>

972
00:42:44.385 --> 00:42:46.365
and it's one of those things where like, well, we could talk

973
00:42:46.385 --> 00:42:48.685
for another hour, but I think I left

974
00:42:48.685 --> 00:42:49.725
it at a pretty good point.

975
00:42:50.125 --> 00:42:53.605
I mean, I'll, I'll make one part of that 0.1 more time,

976
00:42:53.605 --> 00:42:55.445
which is that you have power.

977
00:42:56.145 --> 00:42:58.565
Anyone. You have power. You don't need to be a manager.

978
00:42:58.625 --> 00:42:59.845
You don't have to be an executive.

979
00:42:59.845 --> 00:43:02.765
You have power, you have a voice, you have insight.

980
00:43:03.065 --> 00:43:05.125
You collectively, if you organize

981
00:43:05.225 --> 00:43:06.725
and you understand the why,

982
00:43:07.505 --> 00:43:10.445
and you talk to your colleagues across difference, right?

983
00:43:10.445 --> 00:43:11.685
Even if it's uncomfortable,

984
00:43:12.115 --> 00:43:14.165
like we can do big things together.

985
00:43:14.265 --> 00:43:17.165
And that's what we're going to have to do if we wanna get

986
00:43:17.165 --> 00:43:19.965
through this moment and, you know, stop eating each other

987
00:43:21.505 --> 00:43:25.005
and actually create real progress for everyone instead

988
00:43:25.005 --> 00:43:26.725
of getting swept up in these culture wars,

989
00:43:26.775 --> 00:43:28.165
which I think are a waste

990
00:43:28.165 --> 00:43:29.725
of everyone's time, and no one likes them.

991
00:43:31.415 --> 00:43:35.075
<v Speaker 1>Oof. Lily, I cannot thank you enough for your time</v>

992
00:43:35.255 --> 00:43:37.235
and your thoughtfulness and your insight today.

993
00:43:37.475 --> 00:43:38.715
I have enjoyed this so much.

994
00:43:39.045 --> 00:43:40.715
Thank you so much for joining me today.

995
00:43:41.205 --> 00:43:42.395
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for having me.</v>

996
00:43:42.555 --> 00:43:45.235
I hope this gives lots of value to the folks tuning in,

997
00:43:45.235 --> 00:43:48.075
and I hope folks, uh, have many ideas for what

998
00:43:48.075 --> 00:43:50.155
to apply in your own work and your own lives.

999
00:43:51.195 --> 00:43:53.435
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely. No doubt. And there will be more information</v>

1000
00:43:53.465 --> 00:43:55.755
that we'll share in the show notes for anybody who wants

1001
00:43:55.755 --> 00:43:56.835
to learn more about Lily.

1002
00:43:56.835 --> 00:43:58.395
But thanks again. Have a good one.

1003
00:43:58.815 --> 00:44:02.475
<v Speaker 2>Bye.</v>
<v Speaker 1>I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Lily Jang.</v>

1004
00:44:02.775 --> 00:44:04.715
You can learn more about them at their website,

1005
00:44:04.945 --> 00:44:08.155
lily jang.co, which you'll also find in the show notes.

1006
00:44:09.105 --> 00:44:11.155
Join me next week for another great episode.

1007
00:44:11.525 --> 00:44:14.675
Until then, visit my website@leadabovenoise.com

1008
00:44:15.015 --> 00:44:17.515
and follow Modern Mentor on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

1009
00:44:17.735 --> 00:44:19.315
or wherever you listen to podcasts.

1010
00:44:19.615 --> 00:44:22.395
Thanks so much for listening and have a successful week.

1011
00:44:22.775 --> 00:44:24.915
Modern Mentor is a quick and Dirty Tips podcast.

1012
00:44:25.465 --> 00:44:27.315
It's audio engineered by Dan Fand.

1013
00:44:27.775 --> 00:44:29.995
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1014
00:44:30.255 --> 00:44:32.645
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1015
00:44:32.705 --> 00:44:33.885
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1016
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1017
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1018
00:44:39.945 --> 00:44:42.045
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