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Hey, it's Rachel Cook, your Modern mentor.
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I'm the founder of Lead Above Noise, where we work
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with leaders in teams to build capability
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and confidence to lead through change
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and to drive their best results while
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keeping burnout at bay.
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And we'd love to partner with your team.
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So shoot me a note at rachel@leadabovenoise.com.
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Let's pick a chat. Okay,
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so today's episode is one I'm really excited
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to drop into your ears.
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It's a conversation that I had with Linda Cohen,
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the Kindness Catalyst.
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This interview feels so timely for me as I keep talking
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to leadership teams who seem to be struggling with, well,
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feeling like kindness at work is missing these days,
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like people are stressed and cranky,
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and we're all feeling a little mistrust and disconnection.
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And as Linda makes so clear,
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these feelings have very real world consequences on our
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employee experiences, but also
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on the results that we deliver.
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Linda is a brilliant speaker and educator on the why
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and how of building kindness into our workplaces.
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I hope you enjoy our conversation.
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So, Linda Cohen, the Kindness Catalyst.
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I am so delighted to have you welcome
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to the Modern Mentor Podcast.
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Thank you so much, Rachel. Happy to see you.
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So happy to see you. And I am happy to learn about
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the work that you're doing
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regarding kindness in the workplace,
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because I will tell you, I know I am hearing
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just a tremendous amount about this in
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my client work these days.
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People are feeling this sentiment.
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I certainly do most of my work here in the us.
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Uh, we're recording this in early 2025.
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It's been, it's been kind of crazy times here,
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and I think people are feeling it.
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They're feeling burned out, they're feeling overwhelmed.
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And I think people are describing
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to me this experience at work of people just being kind of
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edgier and crankier and less patient.
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And just the whole experience of engaging
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with colleagues is starting
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to get more challenging for people.
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And maybe I'd love to start, Linda, with a little bit about
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what are you hearing about in the workplace
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these days around kindness?
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And then we'll get into some of your expertise and advice. I
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Think what you're saying is so right, Rachel.
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And I think the thing I'm hearing over
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and over again is having to give each other grace
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and ourselves just
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because we are holding things outside
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of the workplace in addition to our workloads that may be,
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you know, leveling on top of what we're,
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what we're feeling in our workplaces.
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And so making sure we are finding ways personally
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and professionally to lean into anything we need to continue
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to stay, um, grounded and,
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and maybe not have
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to have difficult conversations every single day. Yeah,
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That's totally fair.
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So Linda, you have been doing this work in the realm
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of kindness for quite some time now, right?
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Yeah. Should we say at least a decade? At
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Least a decade, yes.
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Yeah. Okay. So things have changed a lot
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over the past 10 years.
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Tell me a little bit about
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what things were like in the workplace when you were first
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getting started and
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and what were some of the things you
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were focusing on back then?
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Oh, gosh. You're asking me a question to go back a decade.
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Um, it felt, I do think
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that while I felt like there was really this important value
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to discuss kindness, I felt then
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that it was a little harder to bring that topic to leaders.
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I'm not sure it was as, as accepted then.
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And there were certainly less people doing it a decade ago.
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And now I feel like there is this word, kindness,
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and what does that mean in the workplace?
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And what are the characteristics of kindness?
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What does that actually look like when I am focusing on
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that, whether that's patience or resilience or integrity
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or compassion or composure.
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You know, a lot of the different things we could break
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kindness down into and, and why does that matter?
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And I do feel like I have more leaders now.
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I mean, I'm happy to say that my business is thriving,
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you know, at some point if I put myself out of business,
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then maybe we'll be living in the world that I envision
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I would like to live in.
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But until then, I feel like I'm at least happy
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that there are leaders and managers
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and organizations that are happy to begin focusing on this.
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And now that we're talking about why does kindness matter
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and it impacts my, my productivity of my employees,
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their happiness, the bottom line of my organization,
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when they know all of that, then they,
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they really want to do more of it.
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Okay. So it sounds like today leaders are recognizing
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that there is an actual business case, an imperative
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for infusing more kindness into the workplace.
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Yeah, 100%.
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And I think the other great thing for me, just as someone
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who stepped into this work, kind of without having a roadmap
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to where this would lead to, there's also more research now.
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There are more books about it.
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There are professors, university professors, doctors,
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all sorts of people talking about the benefits of kindness,
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uh, professionally and personally.
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And so I feel like I have a lot more research and science
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and data that I can pull on when people push back
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about why does kindness matter?
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And I have to tell you, I'll, I'll tell you the answer,
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10 years ago, I remember people asking me,
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who's gonna hire you to talk about that?
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And I have not had anybody ask me that probably in the last,
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you know, seven, seven or so years.
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Yeah. That resonates.
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Do you have any particular favorite pieces of research
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or data that you like to pull on when you're talking
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to maybe a bit of a cynical leader
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around why happiness is so important at work?
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Ah, you would ask me that.
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I mean, I'll tell you the piece of research that I like
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to share, which is not really for the leader.
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It's really for the person themselves, which is about
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how kindness and happiness are connected.
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And the research is from a psychology professor at uc
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Riverside, and she, Sonya Luba murky,
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and she studies happiness.
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And the final piece of the research is
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that not only do does our DNA impact our happiness
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and our living circumstances,
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but 40%
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of our internal happiness comes from our
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intentional actions.
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Hmm. So that's a piece of research
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that I did not know when I stepped into this work.
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And I like sharing that
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because especially now when I think a lot
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of people feel overwhelmed, I can't change everything.
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I feel like there are many things out of my control.
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I love that research to remind you there may be things out
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of your control, but what's not out of your control is
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how you act or react.
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So if you are in a situation that is a difficult situation,
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you have to talk to an employee or something is going on,
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or a team member, one
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of the kindest things you could do is have
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that difficult conversation, give that feedback
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and know that that person will probably benefit in the long
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run from that feedback.
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So, so your intentional actions can be kind,
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but they can also be, um, impactful in the work setting.
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Nice. So let's, let's follow that thread a little bit
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because I know difficult conversations,
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crucial conversations.
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We give them different labels, they tend
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to make people uncomfortable, understandably,
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sometimes they are uncomfortable to have.
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And yet what I hear you saying is
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that sometimes having the conversation is the
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kindest thing we can do.
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So let's start there. Let's start with a leader
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or even an individual contributor
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who has something difficult that they've been sitting on.
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They know they need to give somebody a piece of feedback
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or they need to address a
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concerning behavior that they've seen.
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Are there any tips that you can offer around
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how we can have a difficult conversation in a way that is
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truthful and designed to help someone change behavior
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and also be a demonstration of kindness?
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Yeah, I mean, I had a leader last week
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that I actually was talking to about this in senior living.
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And she had an employee that was failing in, you know,
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an activity that they had expected him to do.
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And so she called and her door is always open.
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She is such a kind leader, she leads with compassion,
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she sees her employees as whole people.
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She's one of my favorite leaders to work with.
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And she said she called, you know, this employee in
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and sort of said what she thought was going
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to happen in this situation so that he would, you know,
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she would take something off his plate
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and she could tell by his body language he did
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not like that.
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It felt like something was being taken away from him.
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And so she said, you know, I don't, I,
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I can tell you're not happy with that.
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And, uh, you know, what, what's going on?
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What, what are you thinking about?
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And because they had built this relationship of safety,
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and he clearly knew he wasn't gonna be fired
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because of this situation, he was able to share
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with her, well, this is what I want.
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You know, and they were able to talk about it, uh, together
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and came up with a solution
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that was gratifying for both of them.
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So I think when you build that trust with your employees
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as a leader, and you,
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and you are thoughtful about those difficult conversations,
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you can get to a point where you're gonna be able to
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find a solution together.
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And so I think, you know, trust and honesty
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and autonomy, letting your people have some of that
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as a leader, um, will allow you to have those conversations.
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And I think, you know, if you practice when it's easy,
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it's gonna be, it's gonna be better when it gets
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to be a hard situation.
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And, and there's already this situation where you've created
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between the two of you.
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Um, I think you gotta assume best intent, you know?
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And if you go into this situation with best intent,
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this feedback is gonna be helpful to my employee,
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they're gonna grow because I share this with them.
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Um, and if it isn't taken well, how can we,
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how can we rectify that?
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I think all those things are really important.
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And it's not easy. I'm not gonna say it's easy, you know,
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for leaders, for leaders, for the employee.
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Um, but again, I think if you're coming from a heartfelt
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place, um, that's where you gotta start.
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Yeah. And I think there were a couple of things
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that you just said that I wanna pull through.
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They really resonated for me,
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kindness doesn't necessarily mean giving somebody everything
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they want and only what they want.
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What I heard you describe in that example was
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that the leader was truthful, they were transparent
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and honest about the situation.
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And then what I also heard was they gave the other person
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space to have a reaction, to have feelings.
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And it sounds like in that case, they were able
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to reach a compromise.
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The reality, at least in my work,
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and I'm sure you've seen this as well,
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sometimes you're not able to compromise.
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Sometimes as a leader, you are just telling somebody
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something they aren't going to wanna hear.
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And kindness doesn't mean shying away from
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that kindness means being transparent about it
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and giving them space to just have feelings,
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have a reaction, and maybe not be defensive about it.
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Is that a fair summary?
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Totally, yeah. And if they do get defensive,
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you could listen as a kind leader, you could, you know,
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repeat back to them what they are saying so they hear, heard
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that they are heard.
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And you know, the outcome may still not be
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favorable for the employee.
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That is a possibility.
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However, um, you know, if, if it's something where you know,
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there's gonna be some time you have to work on a behavior,
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we're gonna have to come back to this.
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Hopefully, if it isn't right now that that employee realizes
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that that leader helped me be a better employee,
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be a better listener, be a better manager, whatever it is,
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you know, sometimes those conversations aren't gonna,
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you're not gonna know the results right now,
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you're gonna have to wait six months a year or something.
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And of course, if there isn't a change in behavior,
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that person may not last in a culture that you are trying
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to create that is a kinder culture.
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You may end up having to let them go and caught your losses
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because that person isn't the right fit.
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And if you have one person in an organization who is toxic
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and bringing in that negativity, that's gonna spread,
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you know, and you and your other employees are gonna feel it
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and notice it, and it's not gonna be a good fit
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in the long term for you.
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So, absolutely. I don't think manager, I think, you know,
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I think manager work is really hard.
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That is probably one
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of the hardest places in an organization.
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And when you do it well, your employees will remember you.
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ILI gave a talk this week, um, to a leadership team,
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and I ask sometimes what, you know,
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what's some way you got recognized?
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And somebody stood up and she said she got a letter from a
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manager like 25 years ago, it's still in her office.
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She still reads it. She still thinks about that manager.
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And now that she's managing other people, she also wants
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to emulate what she learned as a younger person.
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So I think that's really beautiful.
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I love that. So there's something in the power
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of just being reflective about some of your own experiences
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and what's worked for you.
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I loved what you said, Linda,
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you said practice when it's easy.
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So then when it gets hard,
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you'll feel more confident about that.
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I love that. I wanna call that out and,
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and sort of ask people to sit with that,
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because I think a lot of us,
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we think about difficult conversations,
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crucial conversations as being kind
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of these life or death moments.
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And we're, we're sweating and our palms are getting sweaty.
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And now I'm quoting Eminem.
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But, but I think like finding moments
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where maybe the stakes are really low
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and you have a gentle piece of feedback
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that you wanna give someone, you know,
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maybe somebody said something in a meeting
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and you wanna offer them just a little bit of advice on
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how they could have been more concise or more persuasive.
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And it's kind of low stakes,
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but giving yourself, being conscious about finding these
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moments where you can practice being honest
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and kind at the same time, I think that's a really,
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really useful piece
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of advice we could all benefit from. Definitely.
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And the one thing I'll also say is I've heard leaders say
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that they will practice outside of that first conversation.
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Maybe they'll practice the role play with somebody
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that they trust before they go into the real conversation,
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because then they've maybe thought through what,
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what are some ways this could go?
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And now I have some thoughts about how I can handle this,
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if it goes in this direction
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or that direction, I think you, you know,
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you're gonna get better at that.
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And, uh, I like the idea of, like you said, um,
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practicing when it's l less high stakes for you.
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I love that. All right.
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So we've tackled a little bit around difficult,
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maybe one-on-one conversations,
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but I know you just said you talked to leadership teams.
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I know you work with organizations.
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You used the word earlier, uh, toxic.
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And that is certainly something
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that's been coming up a lot lately.
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Toxic culture is toxic leadership.
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And I'd love to talk to you just a little bit about
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how you approach the topic of kindness at more
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of an organizational level.
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So if leaders in an organization are looking around
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and recognizing, you know, what we, we are kind
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of lacking in kindness and trust and patience
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and in insert your own words
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and we wanna try to shift our culture of kindness,
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but that feels a little soft and squishy
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and kind of up in the clouds.
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Where do we start? What's the first step
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that you might advise a leadership team to take?
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Yeah, I mean, I think the first step would be
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to come together and have a conversation
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around why kindness matters.
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And I do have a, you know, I have a slide in my slide deck,
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which is a big elephant,
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and I put that up if I'm being pushed back about why the
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leadership team is not gonna
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think that kindness is important.
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And then I show all of the articles from Forbes magazine,
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HBR, you know, SHRM, all of the places that are showing why
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and how kindness matters.
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They just kind of go by really quickly
365
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as I'm giving a thought process to why this word kindness.
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And I think when you say kindness does break down to trust,
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respect, autonomy, you know,
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I have over the years thought about the different ways
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that this idea can manifest.
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And I think the conversation has to start.
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If you have a culture that is not where you want it to be,
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and you do think that the leadership is what's impacting
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that, you have to start with the leadership
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and you have to have a buy-in from them so
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that they are saying, okay,
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this is a culture we wanna look at collectively.
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And then you can, you know, talk to your middle managers,
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your frontline staff, which is the fun thing that I get
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to do when I work with an organization
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that really buys into this.
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We wanna change a culture.
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That's where we usually start, is at the leadership level,
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and then we bring it throughout the organization.
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And, you know, there are shifts in retention and reputation
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and recognition
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and being able to recruit great talent if you have a,
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a culture that really is focused on that.
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Absolutely. So let's imagine now you've,
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you've got a leadership team, they're bought in,
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they've come together and they agree, you know what we do,
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we need to start to make some changes.
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What are some of the kind of behavioral shifts
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or the early actions that you might suggest that leaders
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experiment with in order to try to shift the culture?
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Yeah, I think it's, um, you know, you used some words
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that I would use in terms of difficult
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conversations or communication.
398
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I would say being transparent, being honest, being, um,
399
00:16:38.585 --> 00:16:40.085
you know, things that are gonna be beneficial.
400
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I think coming to your team
401
00:16:41.745 --> 00:16:44.125
and saying, this is the culture we want,
402
00:16:44.625 --> 00:16:45.965
we aren't quite there yet.
403
00:16:46.105 --> 00:16:48.925
And maybe you start at a team meeting, an all staff meeting.
404
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Maybe you start with just your direct reports,
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00:16:50.995 --> 00:16:52.125
your middle managers,
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00:16:52.425 --> 00:16:55.925
but you begin to get the buy-in from any of the other people
407
00:16:55.925 --> 00:16:59.085
who are going to need to share the changing culture.
408
00:16:59.745 --> 00:17:01.965
And then I think you just have to make it top of mind.
409
00:17:02.045 --> 00:17:04.365
I mean, I have some really fun ways.
410
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I, I work in senior living, um, is one of my big,
411
00:17:07.385 --> 00:17:08.525
um, audiences.
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And we brought out a bingo, a kindness bingo,
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which had all the behaviors we were trying to bring out,
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and we sort of incentivized it
415
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and gamified it as a fun way to bring it to, um, to more
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of the collective.
417
00:17:19.785 --> 00:17:21.445
Um, and that has worked really well.
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Being able to continue to have the conversations regularly,
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00:17:25.885 --> 00:17:28.765
I would say, at team meetings, um, with, you know,
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whether it's an icebreaker, it's recognition, it's a,
421
00:17:31.925 --> 00:17:34.445
a characteristic of kindness who wanna focus on this month.
422
00:17:34.565 --> 00:17:38.565
I have bite-size, kindness, tips that I share with clients.
423
00:17:38.665 --> 00:17:40.565
So a lot of different ways to really help
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00:17:41.415 --> 00:17:42.485
begin the conversation.
425
00:17:42.765 --> 00:17:46.765
I don't think kindness is, it's not a surprise to people.
426
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I think once we start focusing on, on it
427
00:17:49.165 --> 00:17:51.805
and talking about it, how it can make a difference,
428
00:17:51.865 --> 00:17:53.645
how people can feel differently in a culture
429
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that is accessing that.
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00:17:55.265 --> 00:17:57.605
So it's really just finding the people
431
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who are gonna be your leaders and your catalysts
432
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and your ambassadors
433
00:18:01.545 --> 00:18:04.925
and helping, you know, uh, fuel them to be able
434
00:18:04.925 --> 00:18:06.485
to be out there sharing more of it.
435
00:18:06.665 --> 00:18:08.445
And there's a lot of research about this
436
00:18:08.465 --> 00:18:09.565
now too, in different ways.
437
00:18:09.625 --> 00:18:12.965
You know, smiling at someone saying hello, you know,
438
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that is so simple.
439
00:18:14.705 --> 00:18:16.405
And that's like a hospitality trick.
440
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And now there are like healthcare organizations
441
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and lots of other organizations that are using that five 10
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way to, to bring just a,
443
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a slightly kinder culture to the forefront.
444
00:18:27.595 --> 00:18:31.125
Nice. So saying hello, um, making eye contact.
445
00:18:31.795 --> 00:18:34.725
What are some other, um, maybe boxes
446
00:18:34.915 --> 00:18:37.325
that you'd see on a kindness bingo card?
447
00:18:37.795 --> 00:18:40.765
Yeah, yeah. Um, saying hello to the person you struggle
448
00:18:40.765 --> 00:18:42.205
with was kind of a fun one
449
00:18:42.205 --> 00:18:44.845
because I did have, um, a manager tell me
450
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that her frontline, her front desk person, you know, was
451
00:18:48.565 --> 00:18:50.245
so excited to do the Bingo card
452
00:18:50.265 --> 00:18:51.725
and said, I can't do this one.
453
00:18:51.925 --> 00:18:53.405
'cause the person I struggle with is just,
454
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I just cannot smile at them.
455
00:18:54.955 --> 00:18:58.085
Well, in the end, she decided to start smiling at them
456
00:18:58.345 --> 00:19:00.005
and about three days later she came back
457
00:19:00.005 --> 00:19:02.125
to the general manager and she said, oh my goodness,
458
00:19:02.125 --> 00:19:03.525
something crazy happened.
459
00:19:03.525 --> 00:19:04.765
She's smiling back at me.
460
00:19:05.155 --> 00:19:07.045
Like, I think maybe it was me
461
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and the realization that we, again, we have control
462
00:19:11.985 --> 00:19:15.045
of our actions and our, you know, and our reactions.
463
00:19:15.045 --> 00:19:17.085
We don't really control other people out there,
464
00:19:17.465 --> 00:19:19.205
but perhaps some of that prickly
465
00:19:20.485 --> 00:19:22.765
behavior you're getting from someone else stems from
466
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something you're putting out there, you know,
467
00:19:25.025 --> 00:19:26.725
so I'm smiling at people.
468
00:19:26.885 --> 00:19:28.645
I will tell you the thing that I keep hearing
469
00:19:29.585 --> 00:19:31.845
so often is recognize my work.
470
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I mean, especially throughout the last several years
471
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of the pandemic when people, their jobs morphed,
472
00:19:38.395 --> 00:19:41.685
they were taking on maybe way bigger expectations,
473
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job expectations than they had previously to Covid
474
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and just acknowledge what I'm doing.
475
00:19:46.905 --> 00:19:49.285
You know, notice my work, be specific about
476
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what I've done that you appreciate.
477
00:19:50.785 --> 00:19:55.085
So a manager can play a huge role if recognition is a big
478
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piece of what they do.
479
00:19:56.825 --> 00:19:59.285
And also, uh, you know, the other thing is check on
480
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me, you know, check on me.
481
00:20:00.805 --> 00:20:04.125
I think it became a big kind of conversation.
482
00:20:04.345 --> 00:20:07.525
People are holding a lot right now, whether it is caregiving
483
00:20:07.625 --> 00:20:10.685
or external stresses, and I come to my job
484
00:20:10.745 --> 00:20:12.525
and I can't leave everything at the door
485
00:20:12.525 --> 00:20:14.445
because there are things going on for me outside
486
00:20:14.445 --> 00:20:16.405
of my workplace that are really impacting me.
487
00:20:16.865 --> 00:20:18.765
So when a manager knows that
488
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and is, you know, conscious of that,
489
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that can make such a big difference.
490
00:20:22.365 --> 00:20:24.405
And it can for fellow team members too.
491
00:20:24.545 --> 00:20:27.485
So I, I actually teach that it's not just the leaders
492
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that make a culture, it's employees to each other.
493
00:20:30.635 --> 00:20:31.925
It's employees to the customer,
494
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and it's the customers back to the employees.
495
00:20:33.765 --> 00:20:37.725
So having great ways to get feedback from your clients
496
00:20:37.785 --> 00:20:41.205
or your customers and making sure your employees hear
497
00:20:41.205 --> 00:20:43.285
that when they get complimented.
498
00:20:43.665 --> 00:20:45.965
You know, I always say to start recognition at the beginning
499
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of a meeting, don't wait till the end.
500
00:20:47.925 --> 00:20:49.485
'cause I think that sets a tone as well.
501
00:20:49.545 --> 00:20:51.325
And I think that's one of the ways you can be honest
502
00:20:51.345 --> 00:20:53.685
and transparent about the behavior.
503
00:20:53.785 --> 00:20:55.845
We wanna, we wanna continue to have more on.
504
00:20:55.985 --> 00:20:57.245
That's great. I love that.
505
00:20:57.265 --> 00:21:00.645
So if I'm tracking, I've got smile, I've got say hello,
506
00:21:01.155 --> 00:21:03.285
I've got, I heard you say ask for feedback.
507
00:21:03.485 --> 00:21:05.245
I think that's a really powerful one.
508
00:21:05.705 --> 00:21:08.205
Um, check in on me, recognize my work.
509
00:21:08.445 --> 00:21:11.325
I think these are all, and I will just note that none
510
00:21:11.325 --> 00:21:14.365
of these have to cost a dollar for any company
511
00:21:14.435 --> 00:21:16.685
that is saying, well, we don't have, we,
512
00:21:16.705 --> 00:21:18.605
we don't have the money to invest in a big
513
00:21:18.605 --> 00:21:19.765
giant recognition program.
514
00:21:20.155 --> 00:21:22.525
It's not really necessary. Right, right, right.
515
00:21:22.845 --> 00:21:24.765
I would add from, from my experience
516
00:21:24.765 --> 00:21:26.925
and leaders that I work with, one of the, one
517
00:21:26.925 --> 00:21:29.565
of the biggest acts of kindness that I see is when leaders
518
00:21:30.095 --> 00:21:32.405
start with a question instead of a directive.
519
00:21:32.405 --> 00:21:34.925
Right. And which is a, which is sort of a passive way
520
00:21:34.925 --> 00:21:37.525
of recognizing it's, it's, if I'm the leader, it's my way
521
00:21:37.525 --> 00:21:40.365
of saying I value your opinion and your input
522
00:21:40.465 --> 00:21:42.485
before I'm telling you what to do.
523
00:21:43.165 --> 00:21:46.485
I think sometimes we tend the collective, we, we tend
524
00:21:46.485 --> 00:21:49.405
to think of kindness as niceness and squishiness,
525
00:21:49.505 --> 00:21:51.165
but what I hear a lot of
526
00:21:51.165 --> 00:21:55.045
what I hear you describing is just signals of respect, um,
527
00:21:55.085 --> 00:21:57.485
honoring somebody else's space, their work,
528
00:21:57.485 --> 00:21:58.485
their perspective.
529
00:21:58.645 --> 00:22:01.885
I think these can be really significant ways to
530
00:22:02.435 --> 00:22:04.565
amplify the culture of kindness. Yeah.
531
00:22:04.565 --> 00:22:07.445
Yeah. And I think what you just said is a great addition
532
00:22:07.445 --> 00:22:09.645
because I think you have younger generations
533
00:22:09.645 --> 00:22:10.685
getting into the workforce.
534
00:22:10.945 --> 00:22:13.645
You have people who've come through a pandemic,
535
00:22:13.785 --> 00:22:16.885
so their beginning of their maybe careers is very different
536
00:22:16.885 --> 00:22:19.125
than it was for the leaders who might be leading them who,
537
00:22:19.415 --> 00:22:21.645
whose twenties or thirties were a totally
538
00:22:21.645 --> 00:22:22.685
different experience.
539
00:22:23.225 --> 00:22:26.005
And, uh, maybe you have people from different walks of life
540
00:22:26.065 --> 00:22:29.245
or different, um, cultures embracing that
541
00:22:29.505 --> 00:22:30.925
and asking for feedback
542
00:22:30.985 --> 00:22:32.245
and valuing that, wow,
543
00:22:32.245 --> 00:22:33.765
you have a different perspective than I do.
544
00:22:33.825 --> 00:22:35.565
And, and maybe honoring that.
545
00:22:35.565 --> 00:22:39.565
I heard so many incredible stories about companies that had
546
00:22:39.565 --> 00:22:41.125
to adapt during the pandemic
547
00:22:41.545 --> 00:22:44.445
and that makes an employee feel valued.
548
00:22:45.145 --> 00:22:47.165
My, I'm part of something bigger than me,
549
00:22:47.165 --> 00:22:48.485
and if I give a suggestion
550
00:22:48.485 --> 00:22:50.765
and it's taken, there's a lot
551
00:22:50.865 --> 00:22:52.525
to be said about that for an employee.
552
00:22:52.905 --> 00:22:55.165
Um, so I like that addition you had. So,
553
00:22:55.465 --> 00:22:58.885
You know, I hear a lot these days, Linda, from leaders
554
00:22:59.025 --> 00:23:01.965
who are saying things like, I get it.
555
00:23:02.085 --> 00:23:04.445
I get that retention matters and engagement matters.
556
00:23:04.675 --> 00:23:07.125
Sure, sure, sure. But the stakes are high.
557
00:23:07.525 --> 00:23:10.205
I need, I just feel like the pressure is on,
558
00:23:10.665 --> 00:23:12.525
our clients are expecting more our customers,
559
00:23:12.525 --> 00:23:15.245
our shareholders, and I just, I need more from my team
560
00:23:15.745 --> 00:23:17.485
and I, I know I'm supposed to be kind,
561
00:23:17.705 --> 00:23:19.565
but I, I'm so focused on results
562
00:23:19.585 --> 00:23:22.725
and I'm worried that if I'm too kind, it's gonna diminish
563
00:23:23.105 --> 00:23:25.365
how hard people are working or it's gonna soften us.
564
00:23:25.795 --> 00:23:27.925
What would you say to a leader who
565
00:23:28.685 --> 00:23:31.285
terribly would sound like what I just sounded like? Yeah.
566
00:23:31.565 --> 00:23:34.765
I would, I would really encourage that leader
567
00:23:34.905 --> 00:23:37.605
to think about their, their employees
568
00:23:37.605 --> 00:23:40.645
and their managers as their customers.
569
00:23:41.035 --> 00:23:43.925
Because I think when you love on your managers
570
00:23:43.925 --> 00:23:47.125
and your employees, they will give your clients
571
00:23:47.305 --> 00:23:50.285
and your customers more than if you are
572
00:23:50.785 --> 00:23:51.885
all about productivity.
573
00:23:52.325 --> 00:23:54.245
I really believe that. And I think the companies
574
00:23:54.245 --> 00:23:55.965
that are starting to do that, they're seeing
575
00:23:55.965 --> 00:23:58.525
that I'm hearing those stories, I'm reading about them,
576
00:23:58.745 --> 00:24:01.965
I'm meeting those leaders who are realizing that, you know,
577
00:24:02.065 --> 00:24:05.445
loving my employees and I'm using that word love.
578
00:24:05.605 --> 00:24:08.125
I know. But if you are loving on your employees
579
00:24:08.125 --> 00:24:10.005
and you're treating them the way you want them
580
00:24:10.025 --> 00:24:11.285
to treat their employees
581
00:24:11.285 --> 00:24:13.125
and your customers, they will, they will.
582
00:24:13.585 --> 00:24:16.045
So I, I think there's a new paradigm happening
583
00:24:16.105 --> 00:24:19.165
and if you have a, a a leader who's still pushing back on
584
00:24:19.165 --> 00:24:21.765
that, I would, I'd probably send them ,
585
00:24:22.505 --> 00:24:24.165
I'd probably send them some of those articles
586
00:24:24.165 --> 00:24:26.005
that I was mentioning purposefully
587
00:24:26.225 --> 00:24:27.445
to have them read about it.
588
00:24:27.475 --> 00:24:29.005
Also, my share a copy of my book
589
00:24:29.195 --> 00:24:31.245
because in my book, economy of Kindness,
590
00:24:31.385 --> 00:24:33.165
how kindness transforms your bottom line,
591
00:24:33.185 --> 00:24:35.285
by the time I wrote that book, I had been doing this work
592
00:24:35.665 --> 00:24:37.405
for about eight years with clients
593
00:24:37.505 --> 00:24:39.925
and I, I had to put it in there, all these great stories
594
00:24:39.925 --> 00:24:43.925
that I had heard firsthand about leaders who lead
595
00:24:43.925 --> 00:24:47.605
with kindness and really believe that my team is what I need
596
00:24:47.605 --> 00:24:49.445
to nurture, and if I nurture my team,
597
00:24:49.445 --> 00:24:51.085
they'll nurture everything else. Yeah.
598
00:24:51.505 --> 00:24:53.845
Do you have any examples that you can share,
599
00:24:53.915 --> 00:24:56.085
obviously anonymously, maybe of a client
600
00:24:56.105 --> 00:24:58.005
or an organization that you worked with where
601
00:24:59.085 --> 00:25:01.205
kindness was low and they implemented some
602
00:25:01.205 --> 00:25:03.765
of these recommendations and there was some sort
603
00:25:03.765 --> 00:25:06.125
of impact to their business?
604
00:25:07.025 --> 00:25:08.995
Yeah, I mean, you know, one of my clients,
605
00:25:09.175 --> 00:25:10.875
I'd say their retention has improved.
606
00:25:11.195 --> 00:25:13.955
I think the percentage was 12% less, um,
607
00:25:14.315 --> 00:25:16.035
turnover in the time we've worked together.
608
00:25:16.815 --> 00:25:20.035
Um, certainly the people who are not able
609
00:25:20.055 --> 00:25:24.315
to buy into the philosophy have kind of moved on
610
00:25:24.895 --> 00:25:26.955
and there's been a change in
611
00:25:27.295 --> 00:25:30.275
how the managers think about their, you know,
612
00:25:30.315 --> 00:25:32.315
I just think kindness has become top of mind
613
00:25:32.775 --> 00:25:35.595
and we've kept it dripping, you know, top of mind
614
00:25:35.655 --> 00:25:36.835
for a couple of years.
615
00:25:37.055 --> 00:25:40.435
And I think that has made a difference for how people manage
616
00:25:41.105 --> 00:25:43.795
each other, how they take care of themselves as well.
617
00:25:43.935 --> 00:25:46.515
And I talk about that in my work as well as, you know,
618
00:25:46.515 --> 00:25:47.955
if you are, in fact,
619
00:25:47.995 --> 00:25:49.675
I said this this week at a leadership meeting,
620
00:25:49.675 --> 00:25:51.475
and I could see some eyes in the audience
621
00:25:51.525 --> 00:25:52.835
going, oh, she's right.
622
00:25:52.855 --> 00:25:56.795
It was like, as a leader, if you have no boundaries
623
00:25:56.795 --> 00:26:00.915
around your own self-care, if you, um, work 24 7
624
00:26:00.975 --> 00:26:02.675
and you go on vacation and you have your phone,
625
00:26:02.705 --> 00:26:04.435
your employees are gonna think that that's
626
00:26:04.435 --> 00:26:05.475
how they have to work too.
627
00:26:05.935 --> 00:26:10.235
So I think kindness to self as a leader is a way to show it
628
00:26:10.235 --> 00:26:13.755
and be a role model, um, to other, to your employees.
629
00:26:13.775 --> 00:26:16.715
And also, you know, if you're struggling, get help, get help
630
00:26:16.855 --> 00:26:18.115
and get it publicly so
631
00:26:18.115 --> 00:26:19.875
that your team can know that they can too.
632
00:26:20.635 --> 00:26:22.995
I think that's, I've actually, uh, been paying attention.
633
00:26:23.155 --> 00:26:24.235
I know we're kind of at the end
634
00:26:24.235 --> 00:26:25.515
of our podcast time together,
635
00:26:25.615 --> 00:26:28.675
but I have heard some younger employees talking about the
636
00:26:28.675 --> 00:26:31.995
role models for mental health that they are finding are the,
637
00:26:32.135 --> 00:26:35.595
are different role models than we might have had in a middle
638
00:26:35.785 --> 00:26:37.595
aged kind of population.
639
00:26:37.775 --> 00:26:38.795
And so it's good
640
00:26:38.795 --> 00:26:41.315
because they're, they're addressing that fact that a lot
641
00:26:41.315 --> 00:26:43.440
of people are struggling with mental health right now
642
00:26:43.545 --> 00:26:45.685
and they're getting help for it and they're being public
643
00:26:45.685 --> 00:26:46.685
About it.
644
00:26:46.685 --> 00:26:48.445
Nice. And what about for an employee?
645
00:26:48.895 --> 00:26:52.245
We'll just maybe land here for an employee
646
00:26:52.305 --> 00:26:54.565
who isn't necessarily in a leadership role,
647
00:26:54.565 --> 00:26:57.125
they aren't necessarily looking to role model things,
648
00:26:57.185 --> 00:27:01.325
but maybe they are struggling with feeling unsuccessful
649
00:27:01.385 --> 00:27:03.325
or maybe a little bit of imposter syndrome, .
650
00:27:04.345 --> 00:27:09.245
How do you encourage people to show kindness to themselves?
651
00:27:09.585 --> 00:27:10.685
Any suggestions there?
652
00:27:11.435 --> 00:27:14.085
Yeah, I laugh because the imposter syndrome is something I
653
00:27:14.085 --> 00:27:15.245
know you and I have spoken about.
654
00:27:15.465 --> 00:27:17.605
Um, and I think, you know, every,
655
00:27:17.605 --> 00:27:20.205
every time I have a conversation, imposter syndrome,
656
00:27:20.375 --> 00:27:24.045
confidence, I think that, I think that that continues
657
00:27:24.065 --> 00:27:26.525
to evolve as you evolve professionally,
658
00:27:26.665 --> 00:27:28.405
but I don't think it ever goes away.
659
00:27:28.625 --> 00:27:32.005
So I would encourage an employee, you know, if there are
660
00:27:32.665 --> 00:27:35.645
topics that you, um, that you aren't, you know,
661
00:27:35.645 --> 00:27:38.765
you don't feel like you're there yet, get a book about them,
662
00:27:38.895 --> 00:27:41.045
watch videos about them, find there's
663
00:27:41.065 --> 00:27:43.885
so many amazing people out there in the workforce
664
00:27:44.105 --> 00:27:47.805
who are embodying probably what you'd want to focus on.
665
00:27:47.865 --> 00:27:49.685
And I would say encourage you to find that.
666
00:27:49.825 --> 00:27:51.765
And I would be honest with your manager, you know,
667
00:27:51.765 --> 00:27:53.325
if you feel like you could have a conversation
668
00:27:53.325 --> 00:27:55.805
with your manager about that, do that.
669
00:27:55.805 --> 00:27:58.405
Because I think if your manager realizes I'd like
670
00:27:58.405 --> 00:28:01.245
to have professional growth, one of the things Rachel I see
671
00:28:01.245 --> 00:28:04.325
that I'm kind of not thrilled about is
672
00:28:04.325 --> 00:28:06.365
that I feel like sometimes the professional development
673
00:28:06.365 --> 00:28:07.725
happens at the leadership level
674
00:28:08.225 --> 00:28:10.085
and it doesn't trickle down down
675
00:28:10.085 --> 00:28:11.085
through the whole organization.
676
00:28:11.085 --> 00:28:12.605
And I think that's a lost opportunity
677
00:28:12.715 --> 00:28:15.285
because I do think in a lot of organizations you have,
678
00:28:15.945 --> 00:28:18.805
you have poten high potential employees who
679
00:28:18.805 --> 00:28:21.685
with some professional guidance and professional development
680
00:28:21.685 --> 00:28:23.445
and the opportunities to go to conferences
681
00:28:23.465 --> 00:28:25.845
or what have you, might really benefit from that.
682
00:28:25.985 --> 00:28:28.365
And, and like I'm thinking again, with this idea
683
00:28:28.365 --> 00:28:29.805
that you have younger leaders who have,
684
00:28:30.105 --> 00:28:32.205
or younger employees who are starting their work lives
685
00:28:32.395 --> 00:28:33.725
with a very different set
686
00:28:33.965 --> 00:28:36.485
of circumstances than senior leaders had,
687
00:28:36.865 --> 00:28:38.085
it would be really beneficial.
688
00:28:38.105 --> 00:28:40.405
And actually, I have one client I'm really excited about.
689
00:28:40.405 --> 00:28:44.285
They are actually launching a, a program, um, this year
690
00:28:44.285 --> 00:28:46.645
that is going to focus on kind of new grads
691
00:28:46.865 --> 00:28:49.165
to get them into their particular work environment.
692
00:28:49.165 --> 00:28:51.885
And they're doing an entire year leadership program
693
00:28:52.025 --> 00:28:53.245
for those brand new people.
694
00:28:53.345 --> 00:28:55.325
And I know that's gonna be a really successful program
695
00:28:55.385 --> 00:28:56.405
and I get to be a part of that.
696
00:28:56.785 --> 00:29:00.085
I'm gonna do a kindness, um, set for them, uh,
697
00:29:00.185 --> 00:29:01.765
around this idea of leading.
698
00:29:01.945 --> 00:29:04.765
And we're gonna talk about imposter syndrome and confidence
699
00:29:04.905 --> 00:29:06.285
and some of the ways you can do that.
700
00:29:06.465 --> 00:29:09.245
So I think that was a good question. Hope I answered it.
701
00:29:10.045 --> 00:29:11.245
Excellent. Thank you so much.
702
00:29:12.145 --> 00:29:14.485
So Linda, as we start to bring this to a close,
703
00:29:14.785 --> 00:29:16.485
is there anything that I haven't asked you
704
00:29:16.485 --> 00:29:18.725
that you feel like you wanna answer
705
00:29:18.945 --> 00:29:21.925
or that you want to just leave people with to reflect on
706
00:29:21.925 --> 00:29:23.125
or maybe to experiment with?
707
00:29:23.755 --> 00:29:24.845
Sure. I will leave you
708
00:29:24.845 --> 00:29:26.805
with my three universal lessons of kindness.
709
00:29:27.185 --> 00:29:30.005
Um, I have been speaking about this now for many years,
710
00:29:30.005 --> 00:29:32.605
since I've been in this kindness work now for a long time.
711
00:29:33.265 --> 00:29:34.485
The first is that the size
712
00:29:34.485 --> 00:29:37.325
of the kindness doesn't necessarily matter, doesn't have
713
00:29:37.325 --> 00:29:38.485
to be something huge.
714
00:29:38.905 --> 00:29:40.365
And if you wanna practice kindness,
715
00:29:40.845 --> 00:29:43.845
practice smiling at someone, letting someone in in traffic,
716
00:29:44.025 --> 00:29:46.205
I'm originally from back east, I live out west.
717
00:29:46.485 --> 00:29:49.165
I learned how to not honk and let people in in traffic.
718
00:29:49.705 --> 00:29:51.565
Um, but you can do that in the workplace too.
719
00:29:51.565 --> 00:29:52.605
Maybe acknowledging
720
00:29:52.605 --> 00:29:55.405
and noticing your employees, um, supporting someone.
721
00:29:55.665 --> 00:29:57.565
So find small ways that you can do that.
722
00:29:57.565 --> 00:30:00.005
The second lesson is the ripple effect.
723
00:30:00.545 --> 00:30:03.765
And I encourage people to consider if you hear good news,
724
00:30:03.865 --> 00:30:07.365
if you see stories that you are inspired by, share those.
725
00:30:07.625 --> 00:30:08.845
Use your social media
726
00:30:09.025 --> 00:30:11.405
and any platform you have in the workplace
727
00:30:11.505 --> 00:30:13.525
or personally to share good news.
728
00:30:13.845 --> 00:30:16.205
I think there's really a push now that people want to know
729
00:30:16.205 --> 00:30:18.285
that kindness is happening,
730
00:30:18.305 --> 00:30:20.045
and I promise you it is happening.
731
00:30:20.155 --> 00:30:21.725
It's just not what's getting amplified.
732
00:30:21.785 --> 00:30:23.645
So that's one way you can begin
733
00:30:23.645 --> 00:30:26.245
to ripple out these great stories that are all around us.
734
00:30:26.305 --> 00:30:27.965
And then the final thing is just about giving
735
00:30:28.285 --> 00:30:29.365
kindness and receiving it.
736
00:30:29.825 --> 00:30:32.325
And a lot of people find it very easy to be the givers
737
00:30:32.325 --> 00:30:34.485
of kindness, but most people struggle
738
00:30:34.485 --> 00:30:37.925
to receive kindness across the board, across the world.
739
00:30:38.885 --> 00:30:41.045
Whatever organization I talk to, people struggle with that.
740
00:30:41.105 --> 00:30:43.965
And my suggestion for that is to learn how
741
00:30:43.965 --> 00:30:44.965
to receive a compliment.
742
00:30:45.155 --> 00:30:47.125
When someone gives you a simple compliment,
743
00:30:47.125 --> 00:30:50.245
just say thank you, don't diminish it, just receive it.
744
00:30:50.245 --> 00:30:52.645
And that's one, again, kind of a small way you can practice
745
00:30:52.645 --> 00:30:57.205
that, um, so that you can receive something bigger if
746
00:30:57.205 --> 00:31:00.725
and when you have a medical emergency, health emergency,
747
00:31:00.985 --> 00:31:02.285
you know, loss in your life,
748
00:31:02.285 --> 00:31:04.445
which will happen if you're having a human life.
749
00:31:04.905 --> 00:31:06.005
Um, but then you'll be able
750
00:31:06.005 --> 00:31:07.965
to receive when people wanna give to you at that time.
751
00:31:08.105 --> 00:31:09.885
So those are my lessons. That's
752
00:31:09.885 --> 00:31:11.205
A beautiful place to close.
753
00:31:11.205 --> 00:31:13.525
Linda, thank you so much for being here today.
754
00:31:13.855 --> 00:31:16.405
Thank you.
And we will have, uh,
755
00:31:16.405 --> 00:31:19.605
your contact information in the show notes if anybody wants
756
00:31:19.605 --> 00:31:21.005
to reach out and learn more about
757
00:31:21.005 --> 00:31:22.125
the amazing work that you do.
758
00:31:22.615 --> 00:31:24.765
Thank you so much.
Thanks Linda. Take care.
759
00:31:25.815 --> 00:31:28.315
And there you have it. I hope you enjoyed this conversation
760
00:31:28.315 --> 00:31:30.195
with Linda Cohen, the Kindness Catalyst.
761
00:31:30.455 --> 00:31:31.915
You can learn more about Linda
762
00:31:32.135 --> 00:31:35.395
and her programs@lindacohenconsulting.com.
763
00:31:35.975 --> 00:31:39.435
If you enjoyed this or any previous episode, it would be
764
00:31:39.535 --> 00:31:41.435
so kind of you to leave a rating
765
00:31:41.495 --> 00:31:43.595
or review in your podcast app for the show.
766
00:31:43.975 --> 00:31:46.315
And if you'd like to connect one-on-one, even just to hit me
767
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with a question, reach out anytime at
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rachel@leadabovenoise.com.
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Join me next week for another great episode.
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Until then, visit my website@leadabovenoise.com.
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If your workplace could use an activation boost, a bootcamp,
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a keynote, a pulse check, you choose,
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you can follow Modern Mentor on Apple Podcasts,
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Spotify, or wherever you listen.
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Thanks so much for listening and have a successful week.
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Modern Mentor is a quick and Dirty Tips podcast.
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It's audio engineered by Dan Fand.
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Our Director of podcasts is Brandon Getches.
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Our podcast and advertising operations specialist
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is Morgan Christensen.
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Our digital operations specialist is Holly Hutchings.
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Our marketing and publicity associate is Davina Tomlin.
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Our marketing contractor is Nathaniel Hoops.