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<v Speaker 1>Hey, it's Rachel Cook, your Modern mentor.</v>

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I'm the founder of Lead Above Noise.

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We work with leaders in teams to build capability

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and confidence to lead through change

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and to drive their best results

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while keeping burnout at bay.

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And we'd love to partner with your team.

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Shoot me a note at rachel@leadabovenoise.com.

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We can book a chat. So today, friends, you are in

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for a super treat because today I get to share

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with you a conversation I've dreamed

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of having for quite some time.

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And well, serendipity was on my side

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and I got to meet the illustrious wise and delightful.

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AJ Jacobs, if you are not familiar with aj,

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he's been someone I've followed

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and admired for at least a decade.

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He is, in my very humble opinion, the master of all things,

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curious and quirky and wise, so much so.

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He's made a career out of these traits.

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And I just wanted to learn more about how he's managed to do

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so, how he's had the courage to follow whimsy,

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how he's been resilient enough to pursue ideas

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that on the surface did not scream success.

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And how we can all infuse more of these ways of being

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and doing into our everyday work experiences.

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We talk about following curiosity about being brave

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and resilient and so much more.

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I hope you enjoyed Okay, AJ Jacobs, author,

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podcaster extraordinaire.

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Welcome to the Modern Mentor Podcast.

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I am so over the moon to have you here today.

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<v Speaker 2>I am over the moon to be here. I am a fan. I am a big fan.</v>

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I love your podcast. And I love,

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it's got these actionable tips that I take away every time.

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So I, I'm feeling stressed.

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I need to give some actionable tips to the listener

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so they can come away

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and be like, oh, there are four things I can do.

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So that's my goal. I'm stating it here.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, we have set the bar high.</v>

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They've gotta be actionable,

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they gotta be quick, they gotta be dirty.

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We're gonna make this happen. So AJ uh,

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just quick background for the listeners.

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Uh, you and I had the great fortune

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and by great fortune, I mean all mine , uh,

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to meet in person a few weeks ago.

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It turns out randomly,

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we are sending our children off to college together.

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I saw your name on an, on a guest list,

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and I said to my husband, I am gonna meet this guy

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and I'm gonna get him on my show.

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'cause I have been a fan of his

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for definitely at least a decade at this point.

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So I am so excited that you're here.

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And for fans that don't know you, I described you

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as an author and you are, uh, by the letter of the law.

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But I would also say

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that there is very little traditional

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about the way that you author.

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How would you describe what you do for a living?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, first just, I was so thrilled</v>

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that our kids are both going to the same college.

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I don't know if there's a term for that, that are like

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relatives, like, uh, Mishka, uh, or something.

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But it was great to meet you in person.

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And I'm, uh, as for your question, yeah, I,

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people have described what I do as method writing,

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which I like a method, sort of like method acting.

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So I, what I do is I immerse myself in a topic

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and then I live it for a year or more, maybe less.

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And then I write about what I've learned.

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So I've done that with several topics.

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Everything from religion.

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I tried to follow the Bible as literally

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as possible for a year.

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I tried to be the healthiest person for a year.

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I tried to, uh, be the most grateful person for a year,

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which, uh, I think we, we,

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we have many overlaps in the way we think,

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but one of them is gratitude.

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And I also became, uh, the most obsessive puzzle,

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uh, solver for a year.

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Jigsaws, crosswords, et cetera. So I love it.

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I love my job and I feel lucky that I can do it.

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And that enough people buy my books

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that I can continue doing it

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<v Speaker 1>Well.</v>

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I will keep ranting and raving about them,

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<v Speaker 2>Hopefully more raving than ranting</v>

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<v Speaker 1>More, more raving noted, more raving than ranting .</v>

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Okay,
<v Speaker 2>.</v>

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<v Speaker 1>Um, so I have described you to people, to my friends</v>

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as kind of a blend between a very happy,

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grateful Larry, David

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and Christopher Guest, the movie director , um,

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of method acting or method writing,

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because I feel like what you do in your books,

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and we're gonna talk about it a little bit in a minute, is

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you go really, really deep into something

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for anyone who's ever seen a Christopher Guest movie,

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he sort of does something similar

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where he goes into the world

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of like people bringing their dogs to dog shows,

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or he goes into this really narrow slice of the world, any

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highlights, all of the quirks that are in there

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that nobody's ever looked at that closely.

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And he helps you see the levity and the humor,

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but not at anybody's expense.

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And I kind of feel like that's a little bit of

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what I have experienced you doing with your books.

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I think the first one that I read

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was called Drop Dead Healthy.

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And it was fascinating

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because you spoke to all of these experts across, right,

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the entire health spectrum.

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I remember there was one doctor

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who had never washed his hands, ever,

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and another one who washed her hands

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after literally every exchange.

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And you are trying to figure out kind of what's what here

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<v Speaker 2>First, I just love that description.</v>

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I I love both Christopher Guest and Larry David.

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I talk about in the gratitude book that I feel

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that in my mind it's always a battle between Larry, David

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and Mr. Rogers.

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You've got the positive side and the negative side.

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That's how I, and,

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and I do try, I love watching Larry David,

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but I don't want to be Larry David.

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So I, I always try to bulk up my grateful side.

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Um, but yeah, I, uh, I, I also love what you say about,

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I like to be the every man and try to learn everything, uh,

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and talk to all these experts

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and then try to bring back

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what I think is the wisdom to the reader.

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<v Speaker 1>That is amazing. Now, my question for you,</v>

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my first question for you is how do you,

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how do you find your ideas?

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And by the way, just to take a step back

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and give this some context, some context.

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The reason I really wanted to talk to you today, AJ, is

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well, 'cause we had so much fun at our college event,

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but more so because I'm just talking

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to people all over the place, across industries

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who are really struggling at work right now.

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Um, they are bored, they are disconnected,

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they are lonely, they feel stuck.

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There's a lot of, um,

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they are burned out, they're overwhelmed.

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And I just, I feel like people are struggling

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to find their spark these days.

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Hmm. That's what I feel like I'm sharing over and over.

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And you are like a walking spark plug.

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And so at least that's my experience of you.

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And so that is really what I wanna explore with you today.

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I wanna talk about your relationship with, with creativity

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and whimsy and risk taking,

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because I feel like these are some of the missing elements,

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uh, that people are struggling to find.

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So I probably should have done

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that setup in the beginning, ,

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but I'm doing it now better late than never.

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So with that said, I would love

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to hear a little bit from you about

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where your ideas come from.

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Like, we're all walking down the same streets,

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but you just seem to see things

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or your eye seems to get caught by things

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that other people's don't.

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And I'm curious what you can share about that.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I can share that I love coming up with ideas.</v>

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And I will say that 98%

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of my ideas are terrible and they're just crap.

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Uh, and so hopefully you see the 2% that are good,

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but know that it is just the tip of an iceberg where most

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of the ideas are terrible.

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I have, I try to be very, uh, disciplined about it.

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So I do spend 15 minutes every morning with my, uh,

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remarkable tablet writing by hand.

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'cause I am a fan of writing by hand.

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And I just, I have some magazines around me

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and I come up with ideas.

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And as I say, most of them are terrible.

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I actually am, I've opened up my list of ideas.

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I have list of thousands of ideas, good and bad.

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And I'll just read you, and you can see most of them.

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I'll read like four or five.

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And you'll see, I saw a picture of Mona Lisa,

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and I thought, well, what if Mona Lisa came alive?

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They made a movie about, it's like Splash with the Mermaid,

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but Mona Lisa comes outta the Frame .

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Uh, and uh, I don't think

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that's a great movie idea, but it was interesting.

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I enjoyed coming up with it.

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Uh, I was thinking about meat

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that you can make in a laboratory,

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and now there's no boundaries.

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So what if you made, took a little meat from every species

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on earth, a little, little cheek swab,

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and you had an everything burger,

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like an everything bagel of ev .

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So yes, your face is making,

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and uh, you are looking

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absolutely grossed out, which is the point.

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As I say, most of these are bad ideas, we're never gonna,

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but then I thought sometimes they lead to something.

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Like, for instance, I was thinking, I don't know,

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I saw a picture of a cat and I thought of the word caddy,

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and are cat's actually caddy?

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And that led to a puzzle that I'm gonna do on my podcast,

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which is about puzzles, about adjectives

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and verbs related to animals.

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So that idea, it was just a seed that planted something.

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It may not be the greatest puzzle ever,

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but I thought it was interesting enough to pursue.

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So that is, um, I come up to me

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and I've talked to creativity experts, uh,

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because I, I've written about creativity and,

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and the general consensus

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among the scientists is it's a numbers game.

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You know, you don't see a lot of Picasso's terrible stuff,

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but he made it, he made terrible stuff

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and he might turn it away.

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So it is a lot about being okay with coming up

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with bad ideas because

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that's the only way you're gonna get to the good ideas.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so that's really helpful.</v>

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And I actually, in the spirit

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of making sure we capture actionable tips, I kind

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of feel like I heard two in there.

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So keep me honest. One thing I heard you say is it's

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about volume, right?

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So sitting and sitting and thinking and thinking

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and waiting for the good idea to rise

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to the top is probably a losing person's game.

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Agreed. Um, and I have heard, I think it was Seth Godin

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who said that people with the most good ideas are just the

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ones with the most bad ideas, right?

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So love that.

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There's definitely something about just generating volume

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and, and letting it flow.

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00:11:06.485 --> 00:11:08.205
I love that you have that daily practice.

245
00:11:08.625 --> 00:11:12.165
But I also heard, and maybe I'm, I am intuiting this

246
00:11:12.165 --> 00:11:13.965
and you can call me out and say that it's wrong,

247
00:11:14.345 --> 00:11:16.565
but what I hear you saying is you're not necessarily

248
00:11:16.565 --> 00:11:19.405
thinking of ideas in service of something.

249
00:11:19.425 --> 00:11:21.165
You're just thinking

250
00:11:21.165 --> 00:11:24.765
of stuff like you're just letting ideas come.

251
00:11:24.765 --> 00:11:25.925
You're not necessarily,

252
00:11:26.265 --> 00:11:27.325
it doesn't sound like you were

253
00:11:27.325 --> 00:11:28.525
trying to come up with a puzzle.

254
00:11:28.665 --> 00:11:30.525
You were just letting ideas come out

255
00:11:30.585 --> 00:11:31.845
and be what they need to be.

256
00:11:32.025 --> 00:11:35.165
And you turned one of them into a puzzle, right?

257
00:11:35.265 --> 00:11:39.045
And so from a creativity standpoint, I feel like

258
00:11:39.735 --> 00:11:41.485
discipline and volume is one thing.

259
00:11:42.145 --> 00:11:45.285
And then what I'm hearing is it doesn't have to be a purpose

260
00:11:45.545 --> 00:11:46.765
or a so what to it.

261
00:11:46.835 --> 00:11:49.245
It's just a creative exercise.

262
00:11:49.545 --> 00:11:51.765
Is that any of that fair and reasonable?

263
00:11:52.505 --> 00:11:55.765
<v Speaker 2>Not just fair, but super insightful. Thank you for that.</v>

264
00:11:56.425 --> 00:11:59.325
Yes. I think, I think there's room for both.

265
00:11:59.765 --> 00:12:03.525
I think sometimes when I'm in the morning I am just sort

266
00:12:03.525 --> 00:12:04.765
of coming up with ideas

267
00:12:04.945 --> 00:12:07.885
and then later I'm saying, could this be an article?

268
00:12:07.895 --> 00:12:10.605
Could this be a substack? Could this be a book or a puzzle?

269
00:12:11.595 --> 00:12:14.445
Sometimes I am more focused

270
00:12:14.545 --> 00:12:16.925
and say, okay, I need to come up with a book idea.

271
00:12:17.615 --> 00:12:19.485
Let's spend the next half hour on that.

272
00:12:19.745 --> 00:12:22.365
But again, it is a lot about the discipline,

273
00:12:22.365 --> 00:12:24.965
which you mentioned and carving out a half hour,

274
00:12:25.145 --> 00:12:27.525
making an appointment with your creative self,

275
00:12:27.545 --> 00:12:30.605
as some people say, a little cheesy, but there you go.

276
00:12:30.635 --> 00:12:33.725
Like, you do have to. So I, I, that's not true for everyone.

277
00:12:33.875 --> 00:12:36.165
Some people get their best ideas in the shower,

278
00:12:36.465 --> 00:12:39.965
and I've heard scientists talk about how that releases the,

279
00:12:40.385 --> 00:12:41.765
uh, frontal cortex.

280
00:12:41.905 --> 00:12:43.965
So to let you make connections.

281
00:12:44.845 --> 00:12:48.205
Honestly, for me, it is much more productive to do

282
00:12:49.065 --> 00:12:52.605
the half hour and no, even like that first five minutes,

283
00:12:52.705 --> 00:12:53.965
you may not get anything good

284
00:12:54.325 --> 00:12:55.725
'cause you gotta let your brain warm up.

285
00:12:56.185 --> 00:12:59.325
And then the other question, which I think you implied,

286
00:12:59.505 --> 00:13:03.485
but uh, was how do I know are which ideas are good?

287
00:13:03.485 --> 00:13:04.845
Yeah. And that is very tricky.

288
00:13:05.425 --> 00:13:07.045
Uh, I'd say I have two

289
00:13:07.045 --> 00:13:09.845
or three heuristics that I really rely on.

290
00:13:10.145 --> 00:13:13.695
One is, does this idea stick

291
00:13:13.695 --> 00:13:16.095
around in my brain for a couple of months?

292
00:13:16.315 --> 00:13:18.655
And I'm thinking, oh, remember that idea?

293
00:13:19.285 --> 00:13:20.655
That was actually interesting.

294
00:13:21.115 --> 00:13:23.695
And I do like to tell my ideas good

295
00:13:23.755 --> 00:13:27.135
and bad to people so I can see their reaction.

296
00:13:27.475 --> 00:13:30.695
So I saw your reaction to the everything Burger .

297
00:13:31.635 --> 00:13:33.375
So I know not to pursue that,

298
00:13:34.075 --> 00:13:37.455
but if you can tell, you know, friends will often say, oh,

299
00:13:37.455 --> 00:13:38.935
that's a good idea, but you could kind

300
00:13:38.935 --> 00:13:40.295
of see it in their eyes whether

301
00:13:40.295 --> 00:13:41.455
they really believe it or not.

302
00:13:41.935 --> 00:13:45.855
<v Speaker 1>I love that. So making good use, uh, of the people</v>

303
00:13:45.855 --> 00:13:47.855
around you, the people that you know and trust

304
00:13:47.915 --> 00:13:50.415
and maybe maybe some new, new people.

305
00:13:50.575 --> 00:13:53.935
I know the first time you and I met you shared an idea

306
00:13:53.965 --> 00:13:56.415
with me, and I think I gave you an honest reaction.

307
00:13:56.975 --> 00:13:58.535
I do tend to do that. Um,

308
00:13:58.535 --> 00:14:00.055
and I thought it was really cool that you did that.

309
00:14:00.455 --> 00:14:01.775
Honestly, in the moment I felt honored.

310
00:14:01.875 --> 00:14:03.815
And now I'm pretty sure that you just do that

311
00:14:03.815 --> 00:14:04.975
with everybody, but still ,

312
00:14:06.095 --> 00:14:08.455
<v Speaker 2>I</v>
<v Speaker 1>Think it's a great technique, right?</v>

313
00:14:08.455 --> 00:14:10.975
There's no reason to keep everything so close to the vest.

314
00:14:10.995 --> 00:14:13.375
The people around you are, are resources.

315
00:14:13.555 --> 00:14:14.895
So, so tap into it.

316
00:14:16.285 --> 00:14:17.455
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, it's interesting.</v>

317
00:14:17.655 --> 00:14:19.935
I used to be play it very close to the vest,

318
00:14:20.235 --> 00:14:21.575
not share my ideas,

319
00:14:22.045 --> 00:14:24.335
because there is a risk that you,

320
00:14:24.565 --> 00:14:26.215
someone else will take the idea.

321
00:14:26.675 --> 00:14:27.895
So that mm-hmm .

322
00:14:27.995 --> 00:14:30.575
And in some industries that's a bigger risk than others.

323
00:14:31.495 --> 00:14:34.695
I have found over the years that the benefits

324
00:14:34.695 --> 00:14:37.935
of sharing ideas as they, even in the

325
00:14:39.195 --> 00:14:41.775
infant stage outweighs the risks.

326
00:14:42.235 --> 00:14:45.855
And I've, I've seen this, this is an example

327
00:14:46.565 --> 00:14:50.215
from many years ago, but my friend was on Facebook

328
00:14:50.275 --> 00:14:54.445
and he posted, I wish there was a book called Go the F

329
00:14:54.505 --> 00:14:57.685
to Sleep, or he said, I, I'm writing a book.

330
00:14:57.705 --> 00:14:58.885
He said it jokingly,

331
00:14:59.265 --> 00:15:01.525
and everyone on his Facebook feed was like,

332
00:15:01.525 --> 00:15:03.565
that's a great idea, you should really do that.

333
00:15:04.065 --> 00:15:05.525
And, and that became the book.

334
00:15:05.585 --> 00:15:07.885
So, uh, which sold millions of copies.

335
00:15:08.025 --> 00:15:09.765
It was called Go the F to Sleep,

336
00:15:09.945 --> 00:15:11.805
but it, the F was spelled out.

337
00:15:12.185 --> 00:15:15.845
And it was a great way to humorously address the frustration

338
00:15:15.865 --> 00:15:18.045
of trying to get kids to sleep.

339
00:15:18.705 --> 00:15:20.565
<v Speaker 1>Uh, that book was brilliant</v>

340
00:15:20.705 --> 00:15:23.125
and it really carried me through some

341
00:15:23.125 --> 00:15:27.165
of the early years when yes, I remember the pain.

342
00:15:27.355 --> 00:15:30.525
That is, uh, that's so interesting. I love that. Thank you.

343
00:15:31.145 --> 00:15:33.125
So obviously, or maybe not obviously,

344
00:15:33.125 --> 00:15:35.205
but a a lot of my listeners, um,

345
00:15:35.545 --> 00:15:37.805
are living in professional worlds

346
00:15:37.805 --> 00:15:39.685
that are probably a bit different to yours.

347
00:15:39.685 --> 00:15:42.445
It sounds like you're working in a space where you have the,

348
00:15:42.505 --> 00:15:45.045
the liberty, maybe also the curse of,

349
00:15:45.105 --> 00:15:47.885
but certainly the liberty of the space to be creative.

350
00:15:47.945 --> 00:15:49.565
And, and you have some freedom around that.

351
00:15:50.065 --> 00:15:52.845
And yet, you know, to your point, books are business.

352
00:15:52.845 --> 00:15:54.085
Your work is business.

353
00:15:54.145 --> 00:15:58.285
And so how do you kind of find that balance between

354
00:15:58.815 --> 00:16:00.965
being creative and letting your imagination roam,

355
00:16:00.985 --> 00:16:03.565
but also thinking about, um,

356
00:16:04.055 --> 00:16:07.045
maybe the commercial value of an idea and,

357
00:16:07.225 --> 00:16:10.525
and creating the discipline to actually sit down and,

358
00:16:10.585 --> 00:16:12.085
and write the book or do the work.

359
00:16:12.905 --> 00:16:15.485
Any tips in that realm you can share with us? Oh,

360
00:16:15.485 --> 00:16:16.485
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.</v>

361
00:16:16.485 --> 00:16:20.395
Well, one thing that comes to mind is trying not to

362
00:16:21.015 --> 00:16:23.955
say, oh, this is a creative job

363
00:16:24.255 --> 00:16:26.035
and this is a non-creative job.

364
00:16:26.615 --> 00:16:29.355
So, for instance, I went into writing

365
00:16:29.745 --> 00:16:32.475
because I thought, you know, I love to write,

366
00:16:32.845 --> 00:16:34.155
which is not actually true.

367
00:16:34.395 --> 00:16:36.595
I don't like to write the actual writing.

368
00:16:36.595 --> 00:16:38.715
Sitting alone is quite unpleasant.

369
00:16:38.775 --> 00:16:43.275
Coming up with ideas, talking about those ideas, researching

370
00:16:43.275 --> 00:16:44.995
that I do find enjoyable.

371
00:16:45.455 --> 00:16:47.515
But I was always afraid of marketing,

372
00:16:48.055 --> 00:16:49.995
but then I had to reframe it.

373
00:16:50.235 --> 00:16:52.835
I, a few years ago, I was like, this is a huge part

374
00:16:52.835 --> 00:16:54.315
of being a writer is the marketing.

375
00:16:54.655 --> 00:16:59.155
So I'm gonna reframe it as something creative instead

376
00:16:59.155 --> 00:17:01.235
of this chore that I dread.

377
00:17:01.855 --> 00:17:04.435
And that made a huge difference.

378
00:17:04.775 --> 00:17:06.155
And I was able to, I,

379
00:17:06.395 --> 00:17:09.995
I realized you can be incredibly creative in marketing.

380
00:17:10.095 --> 00:17:13.275
Uh, and so when I wrote the book about the Bible

381
00:17:13.365 --> 00:17:16.755
where I lived by every rule in the Bible from the 10

382
00:17:16.755 --> 00:17:20.235
Commandments on down to growing a huge beard that came out.

383
00:17:20.235 --> 00:17:23.995
And I said, alright, well I, how can I reach those markets

384
00:17:24.185 --> 00:17:27.475
that normally wouldn't be interested in this book?

385
00:17:28.055 --> 00:17:30.755
And I, the Bible talks about sex.

386
00:17:30.945 --> 00:17:34.635
There's a lot of sex in the Bible, then the Song of Songs,

387
00:17:34.695 --> 00:17:37.395
the Song of Solomon is quite racy.

388
00:17:37.855 --> 00:17:42.235
So I did a, uh, an article, I pitched a glamor magazine,

389
00:17:42.645 --> 00:17:44.315
which at the, it's still pretty big,

390
00:17:44.335 --> 00:17:45.675
but at the time was much bigger.

391
00:17:45.795 --> 00:17:49.765
I said, what if I wrote an article, sex tips from the Bible?

392
00:17:50.145 --> 00:17:52.125
And they said, we, you know, yeah, that's great.

393
00:17:52.215 --> 00:17:54.725
We'll do it. So I was able to get that,

394
00:17:54.865 --> 00:17:56.925
and then I did the same thing, you know,

395
00:17:57.285 --> 00:17:59.245
business tips from the Bible, uh,

396
00:17:59.625 --> 00:18:04.445
and, uh, I was able to market it to both atheists

397
00:18:04.705 --> 00:18:06.085
and religious people

398
00:18:06.085 --> 00:18:08.325
because they were part, the book was about

399
00:18:08.345 --> 00:18:10.125
how there are good parts to religion

400
00:18:10.225 --> 00:18:11.485
and bad parts to religion.

401
00:18:11.945 --> 00:18:16.245
So for those who wanted to focus on the skepticism,

402
00:18:16.565 --> 00:18:19.485
I was there for those who wanted to look at the good parts.

403
00:18:19.765 --> 00:18:23.325
I was there. And that was super fun and creative.

404
00:18:24.185 --> 00:18:28.205
Uh, and uh, so I think that's it a lot about framing

405
00:18:28.785 --> 00:18:32.965
and focusing on how anything can be creative

406
00:18:34.065 --> 00:18:37.405
if you, uh, if you look at it a certain way.

407
00:18:38.125 --> 00:18:41.005
<v Speaker 1>I love that. So in the context of the work that I do,</v>

408
00:18:41.065 --> 00:18:42.405
so I, I have my,

409
00:18:43.105 --> 00:18:45.165
my background is in organizational psychology,

410
00:18:45.385 --> 00:18:46.565
and there is this concept

411
00:18:46.635 --> 00:18:49.125
that we talk about in the workplace called job crafting,

412
00:18:49.575 --> 00:18:52.965
which is really just kind of a, a nerdy, wonky way

413
00:18:53.225 --> 00:18:56.285
of giving terminology to what you just described, right?

414
00:18:56.475 --> 00:18:57.725
It's, I think the, um,

415
00:18:58.065 --> 00:19:00.485
the analog in the more traditional workplace is that,

416
00:19:00.785 --> 00:19:01.965
you know, when you have a job,

417
00:19:01.965 --> 00:19:04.165
there are certain objectives you need to achieve.

418
00:19:04.165 --> 00:19:05.845
There are certain outcomes you need to get to,

419
00:19:05.945 --> 00:19:09.485
but finding the, the activities that give you joy,

420
00:19:09.485 --> 00:19:11.645
that light you up thinking about your job

421
00:19:11.645 --> 00:19:13.045
through a particular lens

422
00:19:13.105 --> 00:19:16.645
or context can really shift your experience of it, right?

423
00:19:16.665 --> 00:19:19.525
And so I think there's something really powerful in

424
00:19:19.525 --> 00:19:22.765
that If you are a person who is a great talker

425
00:19:22.765 --> 00:19:24.805
and a great connector and a great researcher,

426
00:19:24.825 --> 00:19:26.685
you can really harness that and leverage that.

427
00:19:26.685 --> 00:19:28.925
If you're somebody who loves spreadsheets,

428
00:19:28.925 --> 00:19:33.085
like you can always find a way to, to choose the activities

429
00:19:33.085 --> 00:19:34.205
that give you joy

430
00:19:34.745 --> 00:19:38.365
and find a way to bring them into the, um, the path

431
00:19:38.465 --> 00:19:41.285
of delivering an outcome that you are accountable to.

432
00:19:41.615 --> 00:19:43.485
<v Speaker 2>Great point. I love that insight.</v>

433
00:19:43.835 --> 00:19:45.725
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And, and so you gave us</v>

434
00:19:45.725 --> 00:19:46.765
such a great example of that.

435
00:19:47.005 --> 00:19:50.245
'cause I can appreciate that the idea of marketing a book,

436
00:19:50.245 --> 00:19:52.565
if you're a writer, if you're a creative marketing sounds

437
00:19:52.565 --> 00:19:54.685
like a very kind of wonky discipline.

438
00:19:54.685 --> 00:19:55.805
And there are right ways and wrong ways.

439
00:19:55.865 --> 00:19:57.245
And it sounds like there's a lot of rigor

440
00:19:57.265 --> 00:20:00.845
and you, you kind of brought your own strengths into

441
00:20:00.905 --> 00:20:02.045
how you approached it.

442
00:20:02.105 --> 00:20:03.805
And you've been, I will say,

443
00:20:03.805 --> 00:20:07.125
you've been very successful just by the measure of,

444
00:20:07.565 --> 00:20:10.365
I definitely fall into more of the atheist bucket.

445
00:20:10.465 --> 00:20:12.005
And I read that book and I loved it,

446
00:20:12.005 --> 00:20:13.765
and I thought it was hilarious, and I couldn't wait

447
00:20:13.765 --> 00:20:17.245
to meet your wife because she is definitely the hero of it.

448
00:20:17.545 --> 00:20:19.805
As we, as we have discussed, , um,

449
00:20:20.205 --> 00:20:23.085
I couldn't imagine having had to live with you through

450
00:20:23.555 --> 00:20:25.925
that year long experiment, but

451
00:20:26.625 --> 00:20:27.885
<v Speaker 2>She did it. She is very</v>

452
00:20:27.885 --> 00:20:28.885
patient.
<v Speaker 1>,</v>

453
00:20:30.855 --> 00:20:32.685
thank you for that. Thank you for sharing that.

454
00:20:33.305 --> 00:20:34.845
Here's what I would love to ask you next.

455
00:20:35.105 --> 00:20:38.085
So you've talked a little bit about how you love coming up

456
00:20:38.085 --> 00:20:40.285
with ideas, how you have discipline around coming up

457
00:20:40.285 --> 00:20:44.725
with ideas, maybe for people who are feeling a little bit

458
00:20:44.725 --> 00:20:46.645
of like boredom and monotony

459
00:20:46.645 --> 00:20:48.805
and my job, job just kind of feels the same every day.

460
00:20:49.545 --> 00:20:51.685
Is there anything that you do to just kind

461
00:20:51.685 --> 00:20:54.205
of like wet your appetite for curiosity?

462
00:20:54.705 --> 00:20:58.045
Any tips on how to, how to start to build that muscle?

463
00:20:59.045 --> 00:21:01.005
<v Speaker 2>I love that question. I love that question.</v>

464
00:21:01.025 --> 00:21:05.725
And I would say, yeah, to make curiosity, curiosity

465
00:21:05.785 --> 00:21:07.365
and gratitude are, are sort

466
00:21:07.365 --> 00:21:10.765
of my two favorite human drives or emotions.

467
00:21:11.345 --> 00:21:14.485
And, and yet there are ways to build up both.

468
00:21:15.585 --> 00:21:18.925
One of the ways I find is I love,

469
00:21:19.165 --> 00:21:23.045
I end once interviewed Alex Trebek, the, uh, late host of

470
00:21:23.605 --> 00:21:27.695
Jeopardy, uh, because I was working at Esquire magazine.

471
00:21:28.615 --> 00:21:30.455
I loved him by the way,

472
00:21:30.455 --> 00:21:33.335
he cursed like a sailor off, off screen .

473
00:21:34.715 --> 00:21:37.015
So there you go. But still quite lovable.

474
00:21:37.395 --> 00:21:40.175
And one of the quotes he said, I still think about it

475
00:21:40.405 --> 00:21:44.815
because it's a little paradoxical, but I totally got it.

476
00:21:44.875 --> 00:21:49.495
And he said, I'm curious about everything, even those things

477
00:21:49.495 --> 00:21:52.495
that don't in interest me, I'm curious about everything,

478
00:21:52.525 --> 00:21:54.455
even those things that don't interest me.

479
00:21:54.995 --> 00:21:57.415
And what I think he meant is it's a way

480
00:21:57.415 --> 00:22:00.975
of looking at the world and realizing that those topics

481
00:22:01.325 --> 00:22:03.855
that might on the surface seem dull,

482
00:22:05.035 --> 00:22:07.655
are actually almost always fascinating,

483
00:22:07.655 --> 00:22:11.615
because they almost always deal with human life.

484
00:22:11.995 --> 00:22:15.535
So when I was writing that book on coffee, I had

485
00:22:15.535 --> 00:22:18.375
to do a section on logistics,

486
00:22:18.475 --> 00:22:20.655
how do the coffee gets to me?

487
00:22:20.955 --> 00:22:25.455
And I had never thought about pallets, those wooden sort

488
00:22:25.455 --> 00:22:27.335
of crates that, and I was like,

489
00:22:27.795 --> 00:22:29.775
how am I gonna write even a sentence on that?

490
00:22:30.075 --> 00:22:33.455
But once I started looking into it, I read a quote,

491
00:22:33.955 --> 00:22:35.615
the world runs on pallets.

492
00:22:36.155 --> 00:22:40.135
So my, everything I am looking at right now,

493
00:22:40.245 --> 00:22:43.495
this microphone, this computer, this table

494
00:22:44.155 --> 00:22:45.255
has been on a pallet.

495
00:22:45.715 --> 00:22:48.895
So without pallets, I would have nothing. Okay?

496
00:22:48.895 --> 00:22:49.975
So you've gotta look,

497
00:22:50.075 --> 00:22:51.335
<v Speaker 1>That's, you've gotta look at it. That's</v>

498
00:22:51.335 --> 00:22:52.335
<v Speaker 2>A fun fact.</v>

499
00:22:52.335 --> 00:22:53.615
It's, they're billions of them.

500
00:22:53.715 --> 00:22:56.735
80% of merchandise has been on a pallet

501
00:22:57.555 --> 00:22:58.975
and without it.

502
00:22:59.315 --> 00:23:01.655
So I always say, how does it affect humans?

503
00:23:02.375 --> 00:23:04.375
I mean, things can be interesting on their own,

504
00:23:04.475 --> 00:23:07.175
but it, it affects my life in a huge way.

505
00:23:07.195 --> 00:23:08.575
And I never even think about it.

506
00:23:09.075 --> 00:23:11.335
So then I have some sort

507
00:23:11.335 --> 00:23:13.295
of emotional, personal investment in it.

508
00:23:13.595 --> 00:23:15.935
I'm like, I'm thankful for pallets.

509
00:23:16.085 --> 00:23:18.655
Without them, I wouldn't be talking to you.

510
00:23:18.855 --> 00:23:20.335
I wouldn't have my morning coffee.

511
00:23:21.075 --> 00:23:25.095
And that, I think is one way to p your curiosity.

512
00:23:25.315 --> 00:23:27.055
See how does it affect my life?

513
00:23:27.055 --> 00:23:29.575
Because almost we're so interconnected

514
00:23:29.685 --> 00:23:32.495
that almost everything does affect our lives.

515
00:23:32.495 --> 00:23:33.895
Whether that's accounting,

516
00:23:34.425 --> 00:23:37.615
which is seemingly people make fun of it for being boring.

517
00:23:38.395 --> 00:23:42.135
Or even, I've heard podcasts about concrete

518
00:23:42.355 --> 00:23:46.485
and how important concrete is to the world.

519
00:23:46.995 --> 00:23:50.485
It's like, I think it's one, perhaps the most common

520
00:23:51.285 --> 00:23:53.005
manufactured substance.

521
00:23:53.545 --> 00:23:56.605
And uh, and I wouldn't be sitting here without it.

522
00:23:56.905 --> 00:23:59.325
So how does it affect your life?

523
00:23:59.705 --> 00:24:04.005
And then going from there, I think that's an entry point

524
00:24:04.105 --> 00:24:05.525
to pique your curiosity.

525
00:24:06.525 --> 00:24:08.725
<v Speaker 1>I love that. That's such a different way</v>

526
00:24:08.945 --> 00:24:10.325
of, of looking at things.

527
00:24:10.785 --> 00:24:12.285
And I think sometimes in the workplace,

528
00:24:12.555 --> 00:24:15.565
sometimes the question that can really trigger

529
00:24:15.705 --> 00:24:18.725
for people is, how does this affect the customer

530
00:24:18.905 --> 00:24:21.245
or the patient depending on what kind of business we're in,

531
00:24:21.745 --> 00:24:23.525
you know, depending on what function you're in,

532
00:24:23.565 --> 00:24:25.245
I think if you're in a healthcare organization

533
00:24:25.345 --> 00:24:28.085
and you are a physician, if you're a nurse,

534
00:24:28.585 --> 00:24:30.685
how you affect the patient is pretty obvious.

535
00:24:30.825 --> 00:24:31.845
But if you work in finance,

536
00:24:32.065 --> 00:24:33.645
if you work on the janitorial staff,

537
00:24:33.645 --> 00:24:37.765
sometimes having some curiosity about how a task

538
00:24:37.765 --> 00:24:39.685
that you have to manage in your day can,

539
00:24:40.595 --> 00:24:42.085
will ultimately have that impact.

540
00:24:42.185 --> 00:24:44.245
It might be a, a way to sort of leverage

541
00:24:44.245 --> 00:24:46.405
that principle in a different context.

542
00:24:46.925 --> 00:24:47.925
I love that. Yeah. Thank you.

543
00:24:48.825 --> 00:24:50.205
<v Speaker 2>Of course. Thank you. I mean,</v>

544
00:24:50.205 --> 00:24:53.085
there's this famous story I think I wrote about in the

545
00:24:53.085 --> 00:24:55.405
gratitude book that turns out to be true.

546
00:24:55.665 --> 00:24:56.845
It sounds apocryphal,

547
00:24:56.845 --> 00:25:00.605
but it's true that John F. Kennedy was touring nasa,

548
00:25:01.585 --> 00:25:05.885
and he asked a janitor who was mopping the hall,

549
00:25:05.945 --> 00:25:07.565
and he said, what's your job here?

550
00:25:07.945 --> 00:25:11.405
And he said, my job is to help put a man on the moon.

551
00:25:11.785 --> 00:25:14.325
And I was like, that is such a great reframe.

552
00:25:15.185 --> 00:25:18.925
Uh, and, uh, and really, yeah, quite inspiring.

553
00:25:19.545 --> 00:25:23.965
The other reframe I love is, uh, as you know,

554
00:25:24.045 --> 00:25:25.045
I love my puzzles.

555
00:25:25.505 --> 00:25:29.765
So I love a quote from Quincy Jones who's the music producer

556
00:25:29.905 --> 00:25:32.485
who says his philosophy of life.

557
00:25:32.625 --> 00:25:34.045
He just died recipes.

558
00:25:34.105 --> 00:25:38.365
He said, I don't have problems, I have puzzles.

559
00:25:38.785 --> 00:25:42.165
So he said, when you look at life, try to see it

560
00:25:42.225 --> 00:25:44.285
as a puzzle at work, you know,

561
00:25:44.305 --> 00:25:45.965
and with, in your relationships,

562
00:25:46.475 --> 00:25:50.045
because it's so much more, uh, invigorating and empowering.

563
00:25:50.385 --> 00:25:51.485
You know, a problem

564
00:25:51.625 --> 00:25:55.005
or a crisis makes you wanna curl up in the corner,

565
00:25:55.225 --> 00:25:58.005
but a puzzle, you're like, okay, let's roll up our sleeves

566
00:25:58.005 --> 00:25:59.365
and see how we can solve this.

567
00:25:59.965 --> 00:26:01.525
<v Speaker 1>I love that. I'm gonna have to look</v>

568
00:26:01.525 --> 00:26:02.845
that one up. Thank you.

569
00:26:03.665 --> 00:26:04.085
<v Speaker 2>Of course.</v>

570
00:26:08.595 --> 00:26:10.925
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so here is my next question for you.</v>

571
00:26:11.605 --> 00:26:14.765
I would describe you, I've already described you a lot,

572
00:26:15.005 --> 00:26:18.685
I know, but , I would describe you as somebody who presents

573
00:26:18.875 --> 00:26:23.165
with this really interesting balance of, uh,

574
00:26:23.765 --> 00:26:26.965
humility and almost a bit of like self-deprecation.

575
00:26:27.705 --> 00:26:31.005
And yet, I have to imagine it takes a lot of confidence

576
00:26:31.105 --> 00:26:33.845
to be doing what you do, to be pitching ideas,

577
00:26:34.025 --> 00:26:35.485
to be pitching Glamor magazine,

578
00:26:35.505 --> 00:26:37.405
to write an article about sex from the Bible.

579
00:26:38.585 --> 00:26:39.885
How do you, how do you do that?

580
00:26:40.185 --> 00:26:42.865
How do you, first of all, does that,

581
00:26:43.035 --> 00:26:44.125
does that resonate with you?

582
00:26:44.665 --> 00:26:46.365
And second of all, if you're willing

583
00:26:46.385 --> 00:26:50.165
to accept my description, how do you strike that balance of,

584
00:26:50.265 --> 00:26:52.685
of being humble and being able to laugh at yourself,

585
00:26:52.705 --> 00:26:55.685
but being able to channel the confidence to take these risks

586
00:26:55.705 --> 00:26:56.845
and put these ideas out there?

587
00:26:57.355 --> 00:26:59.845
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, I would say it's a, it is accurate</v>

588
00:26:59.845 --> 00:27:00.965
with an asterisk.

589
00:27:01.885 --> 00:27:04.605
I act as if I'm confident,

590
00:27:05.145 --> 00:27:07.445
but really often I'm not.

591
00:27:08.265 --> 00:27:12.925
But I think we talked about this, I am a big fan of how

592
00:27:13.605 --> 00:27:16.965
behavior shapes your emotions,

593
00:27:17.745 --> 00:27:21.605
how the outer shapes your inner, the whole idea of acting

594
00:27:21.905 --> 00:27:25.725
as if, and, uh, fake it till you feel it.

595
00:27:26.185 --> 00:27:27.925
Not just fake it till you make, make it,

596
00:27:27.925 --> 00:27:31.045
but fake it till it actually starts to resonate with you.

597
00:27:31.825 --> 00:27:35.085
And, uh, and that's, that's an ancient idea that's been

598
00:27:35.085 --> 00:27:36.605
around for thousands of years.

599
00:27:37.065 --> 00:27:38.885
But it's also a modern idea

600
00:27:39.035 --> 00:27:42.885
because a lot of cognitive behavioral psychology,

601
00:27:42.895 --> 00:27:46.285
which I'm a big fan of, rests on this idea.

602
00:27:46.905 --> 00:27:51.245
So I will pretend that I'm confident,

603
00:27:52.185 --> 00:27:54.725
uh, until I become a little more confident.

604
00:27:55.065 --> 00:27:58.405
So, for instance, you mentioned the health book.

605
00:27:59.005 --> 00:28:01.485
I had to call sort of the top doctors

606
00:28:01.825 --> 00:28:04.165
and experts on health in the world.

607
00:28:04.985 --> 00:28:07.725
And, uh, I was like, I, you know, who am I?

608
00:28:07.845 --> 00:28:09.405
I don't have a PhD. And

609
00:28:09.865 --> 00:28:12.165
so I would wake up sometimes despairing,

610
00:28:12.165 --> 00:28:13.565
this topic is too big.

611
00:28:13.845 --> 00:28:18.325
I, but I would act as if I were confident

612
00:28:18.505 --> 00:28:20.445
and I would call up my publisher.

613
00:28:20.505 --> 00:28:23.885
I'd say, now when this is published, let's have a big party

614
00:28:23.895 --> 00:28:26.205
where we serve kale martinis.

615
00:28:26.265 --> 00:28:29.525
And, you know, I, I would had all these, so I would act

616
00:28:29.525 --> 00:28:32.005
as if I was confident that this was gonna be a mega hit.

617
00:28:32.625 --> 00:28:34.325
And that gave, eventually

618
00:28:34.485 --> 00:28:37.845
after a couple of hours every, every day, I found I had

619
00:28:37.845 --> 00:28:39.165
to restart it every day.

620
00:28:39.625 --> 00:28:43.605
Uh, and I would eventually become more confident

621
00:28:43.625 --> 00:28:47.725
and have the confidence to call up anyone in the world, uh,

622
00:28:47.785 --> 00:28:49.445
and also be okay with being rejected.

623
00:28:49.585 --> 00:28:51.165
That's, um, that's part of it.

624
00:28:51.545 --> 00:28:54.685
So yes, I do feel you need confidence,

625
00:28:55.025 --> 00:28:57.445
but you can sort of fake that confidence

626
00:28:57.535 --> 00:28:59.445
until you gain the real confidence.

627
00:29:00.415 --> 00:29:03.305
<v Speaker 1>Okay. That's helpful. It just, it takes a lot of reps.</v>

628
00:29:04.215 --> 00:29:06.785
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah. I think it, I mean, it's also the same</v>

629
00:29:06.785 --> 00:29:07.905
with, with gratitude.

630
00:29:08.465 --> 00:29:13.145
I would wake up and I would be in my Larry David mood

631
00:29:13.365 --> 00:29:15.145
of not being grateful,

632
00:29:15.525 --> 00:29:18.425
but I would force myself to call people or meet people

633
00:29:18.525 --> 00:29:20.065
and say how thankful I was.

634
00:29:20.645 --> 00:29:23.705
And eventually it would sink in your brain

635
00:29:24.255 --> 00:29:25.545
catches up with your behavior.

636
00:29:26.085 --> 00:29:27.665
<v Speaker 1>So can we talk a little bit about your,</v>

637
00:29:27.935 --> 00:29:31.145
your experience with gratitude? Um, of

638
00:29:31.145 --> 00:29:32.825
<v Speaker 2>Course</v>
<v Speaker 1>You've written about it,</v>

639
00:29:32.825 --> 00:29:33.945
you've talked about it a lot.

640
00:29:34.085 --> 00:29:36.305
It, it's, it's, um, it's a concept

641
00:29:36.335 --> 00:29:38.705
that I think has become pretty popular in,

642
00:29:38.765 --> 00:29:39.985
in pop culture these days.

643
00:29:40.695 --> 00:29:43.125
What would you say was most surprising to you

644
00:29:43.425 --> 00:29:47.325
as you started kind of forcing yourself to be mindful

645
00:29:47.345 --> 00:29:48.445
of moments of gratitude?

646
00:29:48.595 --> 00:29:51.165
What, what surprised you? What did you learn about yourself?

647
00:29:52.595 --> 00:29:55.645
<v Speaker 2>Well, a lot. Uh, one thing was, I think, uh,</v>

648
00:29:55.645 --> 00:29:59.405
the quote is from a benedicting monk, but, uh,

649
00:29:59.625 --> 00:30:03.525
and he said, happiness does not lead to gratitude.

650
00:30:04.235 --> 00:30:05.965
Gratitude leads to happiness.

651
00:30:06.425 --> 00:30:07.605
And I really felt that

652
00:30:07.635 --> 00:30:11.365
because I, when I forced myself to be grateful, I actually

653
00:30:12.065 --> 00:30:15.165
was, uh, uh, ha I would become happier.

654
00:30:15.345 --> 00:30:18.285
And I'll give you just one example of this.

655
00:30:18.665 --> 00:30:23.525
The idea of the book was to call or thank in person.

656
00:30:24.375 --> 00:30:25.445
Every single person.

657
00:30:25.985 --> 00:30:29.805
Not every single, oh, a thousand people who had anything

658
00:30:29.805 --> 00:30:32.165
to do with making my morning cup of coffee.

659
00:30:32.705 --> 00:30:36.085
So that meant the obvious, like the barista, I flew

660
00:30:36.085 --> 00:30:39.245
to South America and I thank the farmers of the beans,

661
00:30:39.865 --> 00:30:42.405
but I also thank the truck driver

662
00:30:42.625 --> 00:30:45.205
and, uh, who carried the coffee beans

663
00:30:45.625 --> 00:30:49.445
or the, the people who made the road for the truck driver.

664
00:30:49.765 --> 00:30:51.325
'cause he couldn't have done it. So the idea was

665
00:30:51.325 --> 00:30:52.405
it's all interconnected.

666
00:30:52.545 --> 00:30:56.285
And I remember one day calling the woman who did

667
00:30:56.995 --> 00:30:59.285
pest control for the warehouse

668
00:30:59.695 --> 00:31:01.685
where the coffee beans were stored.

669
00:31:02.185 --> 00:31:05.485
And I said, I know this is a strange call,

670
00:31:06.145 --> 00:31:09.605
but I'd like to thank you for helping

671
00:31:09.665 --> 00:31:11.685
to keep the insects out of my coffee.

672
00:31:12.265 --> 00:31:15.925
And she said, well, that is a little weird, but thank you.

673
00:31:16.345 --> 00:31:20.085
The, I don't get a lot of positive feedback in my line

674
00:31:20.085 --> 00:31:22.125
of work, and this has kind of made my day,

675
00:31:22.295 --> 00:31:23.845
which in turn made my day.

676
00:31:24.065 --> 00:31:27.085
So it was this virtuous cycle where you

677
00:31:27.725 --> 00:31:30.285
actually become happier by thanking other people.

678
00:31:30.985 --> 00:31:32.485
And that was a huge lesson.

679
00:31:33.185 --> 00:31:34.685
<v Speaker 1>That's amazing. It's amazing.</v>

680
00:31:34.745 --> 00:31:38.005
And you know, one of the conversations I have often in the

681
00:31:38.005 --> 00:31:40.805
workplace is around recognition programs, right?

682
00:31:40.805 --> 00:31:43.445
And we need to, we need to have an online platform

683
00:31:43.505 --> 00:31:45.525
and we need funding and we need to be able to, you know,

684
00:31:45.525 --> 00:31:48.125
give people money and spot bonuses and all that is great.

685
00:31:48.185 --> 00:31:50.845
And I tell organizations, if you, if you manage that,

686
00:31:51.005 --> 00:31:53.405
if you have the the time and the funds, go for it.

687
00:31:53.505 --> 00:31:57.925
But really just regular authentic expressions of thank you.

688
00:31:57.985 --> 00:32:01.485
And I, and I like to tell people, not just thank you for,

689
00:32:01.905 --> 00:32:04.885
for the heroes and not just thank you for the big wins,

690
00:32:05.065 --> 00:32:08.885
but thank you for just behaviors that you appreciate

691
00:32:08.885 --> 00:32:11.525
that you wanna see repeated, you know, expressing gratitude

692
00:32:11.545 --> 00:32:15.485
to somebody because they poked a hole in your plan when

693
00:32:15.485 --> 00:32:17.325
nobody else had the courage to do it right.

694
00:32:17.505 --> 00:32:19.205
Or somebody gave you a piece of advice

695
00:32:19.205 --> 00:32:20.245
that you didn't ask for.

696
00:32:20.395 --> 00:32:23.005
Like the things that we thank people

697
00:32:23.145 --> 00:32:25.745
for, they wanna repeat.

698
00:32:25.835 --> 00:32:28.865
Right? And, and to your point about that virtuous cycle, it,

699
00:32:28.885 --> 00:32:31.705
it sort of, you say thank you, it triggers dopamine

700
00:32:31.705 --> 00:32:33.385
and the other person, they wanna do it again.

701
00:32:33.405 --> 00:32:34.745
And then they wanna say thank you.

702
00:32:34.845 --> 00:32:37.105
And so, you know, I think for anybody who's,

703
00:32:37.235 --> 00:32:39.065
who's not feeling appreciated or,

704
00:32:39.080 --> 00:32:42.045
or recognized in their own lives, they should be mindful of

705
00:32:42.425 --> 00:32:44.045
how can you express that gratitude

706
00:32:44.045 --> 00:32:45.285
and recognize somebody else?

707
00:32:45.465 --> 00:32:47.605
And you, you should start the practice

708
00:32:47.605 --> 00:32:50.005
and create a little bit of a positive contagion around that.

709
00:32:50.795 --> 00:32:52.245
<v Speaker 2>That is such a great point. Yeah.</v>

710
00:32:52.345 --> 00:32:55.765
If you aren't feeling, uh, recognized, maybe

711
00:32:56.285 --> 00:32:58.125
recognize other people and they'll get the idea

712
00:32:58.795 --> 00:33:00.245
that this is a good thing.

713
00:33:00.945 --> 00:33:02.125
Uh, yeah. That's great.

714
00:33:02.985 --> 00:33:04.085
<v Speaker 1>So I wanna switch gears.</v>

715
00:33:04.385 --> 00:33:07.005
Um, AJ and I wanna just talk a little bit about your podcast

716
00:33:07.155 --> 00:33:09.605
because like everything else you touch,

717
00:33:09.875 --> 00:33:11.685
it's a little quirky and it's super fun.

718
00:33:12.385 --> 00:33:14.405
Um, could you tell us a little about it and,

719
00:33:14.545 --> 00:33:17.085
and what figured you to started?

720
00:33:17.585 --> 00:33:20.885
<v Speaker 2>Of course, it's called The Puzzler with a j Jacobs.</v>

721
00:33:20.885 --> 00:33:24.325
It's on iHeart and it's every day a short little burst

722
00:33:24.465 --> 00:33:28.685
of puzzle, audio puzzle, sort of like wordle for your ears.

723
00:33:29.465 --> 00:33:31.005
And uh, I did it

724
00:33:31.005 --> 00:33:33.685
because I wrote a book, as I mentioned on puzzles.

725
00:33:34.265 --> 00:33:37.165
And I do think the puzzles are not a waste of time.

726
00:33:37.495 --> 00:33:40.125
Maybe that is rationalization on my part,

727
00:33:40.425 --> 00:33:44.565
but I genuinely think like Quincy Jones says,

728
00:33:45.215 --> 00:33:47.605
treat your life like a puzzle and it's better.

729
00:33:47.665 --> 00:33:49.725
And it's got, it's all about curiosity,

730
00:33:49.985 --> 00:33:53.285
it all about solutions, which I think we need

731
00:33:53.285 --> 00:33:56.365
to have a solution mindset instead of a problem mindset.

732
00:33:56.865 --> 00:33:58.685
So I'm a huge fan of puzzles

733
00:33:59.025 --> 00:34:01.605
and we'll have on celebrities,

734
00:34:01.895 --> 00:34:03.725
often they're celebrities in quotes,

735
00:34:03.905 --> 00:34:07.205
but sometimes real celebrities like Joseph Gordon Levitt is

736
00:34:07.205 --> 00:34:09.645
coming up next week and he's a real celebrity.

737
00:34:10.275 --> 00:34:13.725
Yeah. And audio puzzles

738
00:34:14.235 --> 00:34:17.325
that are meant to just keep you sharp

739
00:34:17.505 --> 00:34:19.845
and get your brain going in the morning

740
00:34:19.985 --> 00:34:21.325
or at night whenever you listen.

741
00:34:21.665 --> 00:34:24.885
And I'll give you a couple of quick examples just so

742
00:34:24.885 --> 00:34:26.365
that it makes more sense.

743
00:34:27.065 --> 00:34:31.725
One is this puzzle we came up with where it is, uh,

744
00:34:32.565 --> 00:34:35.925
I give a hint of a word, I'm gonna say a word,

745
00:34:36.545 --> 00:34:39.125
but it is occluded, a two word phrase

746
00:34:39.585 --> 00:34:43.205
and you've gotta figure out what that two word phrase is by

747
00:34:43.865 --> 00:34:45.965
the way that I say the first word.

748
00:34:46.105 --> 00:34:50.485
So for instance, if I say tide, then

749
00:34:50.515 --> 00:34:53.525
that answer is gonna be rising tide.

750
00:34:54.325 --> 00:34:56.445
'cause they said it in a rising way.

751
00:34:57.065 --> 00:35:01.005
So if I said for instance, if I said like a takeover,

752
00:35:01.995 --> 00:35:04.525
then that is a clue to hostile

753
00:35:04.525 --> 00:35:05.405
<v Speaker 1>Takeover. Oh yeah.</v>

754
00:35:06.225 --> 00:35:09.005
<v Speaker 2>Ha, you are good. That was fast.</v>

755
00:35:11.645 --> 00:35:14.805
, I forget, are you a puzzler? Are you, do you like puzzles?

756
00:35:15.565 --> 00:35:18.285
<v Speaker 1>I do now.</v>
<v Speaker 2>great.</v>

757
00:35:18.945 --> 00:35:20.765
But another one is banana.

758
00:35:21.425 --> 00:35:23.945
No, banana split.

759
00:35:24.045 --> 00:35:25.465
<v Speaker 1>Banana split.</v>
<v Speaker 2>Wow.</v>

760
00:35:26.125 --> 00:35:30.225
And what I love is I saw the, the aha moment in your eyes,

761
00:35:30.525 --> 00:35:32.745
you were like puzzled, and then you got it.

762
00:35:33.085 --> 00:35:36.305
And that's what we're going for. So I, I do love it.

763
00:35:36.445 --> 00:35:37.725
And as I say,

764
00:35:38.645 --> 00:35:41.765
I do think puzzles are are not a waste of time.

765
00:35:41.765 --> 00:35:43.885
They're the opposite. They are a very

766
00:35:43.885 --> 00:35:45.645
important way to look at the world.

767
00:35:47.605 --> 00:35:48.605
<v Speaker 1>I completely agree.</v>

768
00:35:48.785 --> 00:35:51.205
And coming back to this whole idea of creativity,

769
00:35:51.485 --> 00:35:54.165
I am a really big believer in the power of just

770
00:35:54.845 --> 00:35:55.965
engaging different parts of our

771
00:35:55.965 --> 00:35:57.205
brains throughout the day, right?

772
00:35:57.425 --> 00:36:00.245
I'm a big believer in, I love reading.

773
00:36:00.745 --> 00:36:02.445
Um, I read a lot of nonfiction,

774
00:36:02.525 --> 00:36:03.685
I read a lot of business, thank you.

775
00:36:03.745 --> 00:36:05.445
But I also, I read a lot of fiction

776
00:36:05.745 --> 00:36:08.165
and I think that there's power in that.

777
00:36:08.165 --> 00:36:10.525
And I do, I have not listened to a podcast about concrete,

778
00:36:10.585 --> 00:36:13.685
but I do try to listen to things that are kind

779
00:36:13.685 --> 00:36:15.005
of out of my comfort zone.

780
00:36:15.465 --> 00:36:19.045
Not necessarily things that I'm listening to specifically

781
00:36:19.105 --> 00:36:22.565
to learn something, but just to engage parts of my brain

782
00:36:22.565 --> 00:36:24.685
that I wouldn't necessarily engage otherwise.

783
00:36:25.445 --> 00:36:27.885
I just think the more spots we can light up, the more

784
00:36:28.885 --> 00:36:29.925
interesting ideas and the,

785
00:36:30.065 --> 00:36:32.205
the more captivating connections I think we

786
00:36:32.205 --> 00:36:34.125
can make throughout a day. That's

787
00:36:34.125 --> 00:36:35.125
<v Speaker 2>My hobby.</v>

788
00:36:35.125 --> 00:36:36.285
A hundred percent. I am, you

789
00:36:36.285 --> 00:36:38.685
and I are exactly aligned on that.

790
00:36:39.115 --> 00:36:43.485
Yeah. Reading books about things that you know nothing about

791
00:36:43.865 --> 00:36:46.205
and you might not even be interested in.

792
00:36:46.625 --> 00:36:48.445
And, and also reading articles.

793
00:36:48.725 --> 00:36:51.845
I mean, that is one of the dangers that a lot

794
00:36:51.845 --> 00:36:54.845
of thinkers have been talking about for years, is that

795
00:36:55.385 --> 00:36:58.965
the way the internet works is it figures out what you like

796
00:36:59.145 --> 00:37:00.765
and gives you more and more of that.

797
00:37:01.195 --> 00:37:04.365
Whereas in the old days, which were not perfect,

798
00:37:04.765 --> 00:37:06.205
I don't wanna say we gotta go back,

799
00:37:06.545 --> 00:37:10.045
but there, there was more serendipity in our media.

800
00:37:10.545 --> 00:37:12.925
So if you were looking at the, at the paper

801
00:37:13.425 --> 00:37:16.485
and look reading about something you're interested in, what,

802
00:37:16.845 --> 00:37:20.845
whatever that is, finance, maybe on that same page,

803
00:37:20.845 --> 00:37:22.805
there was an article about India

804
00:37:23.225 --> 00:37:25.325
and you would never get that on your feed,

805
00:37:25.785 --> 00:37:27.725
but you'd say like, oh, this is interesting

806
00:37:27.985 --> 00:37:29.565
and it expanded your mind.

807
00:37:29.985 --> 00:37:32.125
So IJI try to do

808
00:37:32.125 --> 00:37:35.325
that in my information intake is to

809
00:37:35.905 --> 00:37:38.165
not just focus on things I agree with

810
00:37:38.385 --> 00:37:42.525
or that I am, uh, immediately in interested in.

811
00:37:43.205 --> 00:37:46.125
<v Speaker 1>I think that is really good advice right now in an</v>

812
00:37:46.125 --> 00:37:47.365
outside of the workplace.

813
00:37:47.685 --> 00:37:50.165
I think we all need to be mindful

814
00:37:50.305 --> 00:37:52.685
of not getting stuck in our own bubbles, right?

815
00:37:52.685 --> 00:37:55.725
And just keeping our minds open broadly.

816
00:37:56.605 --> 00:37:58.285
<v Speaker 2>A hundred percent. I actually,</v>

817
00:37:58.565 --> 00:38:02.605
I use this app called Ground News, uh,

818
00:38:02.625 --> 00:38:05.205
and it has this feature called Blind Spot,

819
00:38:05.905 --> 00:38:08.285
and it has, it'll show,

820
00:38:09.145 --> 00:38:13.485
and I I, I don't think the world can be divided into just

821
00:38:13.805 --> 00:38:15.005
conservative and liberal.

822
00:38:15.325 --> 00:38:18.765
I think that's, but for the purposes of this app, they,

823
00:38:18.955 --> 00:38:23.565
they do classify certain magazines, media

824
00:38:24.305 --> 00:38:26.125
as liberal, some as conservative,

825
00:38:26.265 --> 00:38:30.805
and they'll show you what the, the conservative media is

826
00:38:31.365 --> 00:38:34.765
covering, that the is a blind spot for the liberals.

827
00:38:34.765 --> 00:38:37.525
And they'll show you what the liberal media is covering.

828
00:38:37.525 --> 00:38:39.525
That's a blind spot for the conservatives.

829
00:38:39.825 --> 00:38:43.405
And I find it very helpful to just have more of a,

830
00:38:43.645 --> 00:38:46.165
a finger on the pulse of what is going on,

831
00:38:46.345 --> 00:38:48.365
not just in my bubble, but everywhere.

832
00:38:49.305 --> 00:38:51.515
<v Speaker 1>That is so interesting. I'm gonna download that.</v>

833
00:38:51.615 --> 00:38:52.995
So thank you for that, Rick. Of

834
00:38:52.995 --> 00:38:53.915
<v Speaker 2>Course. Ground news.</v>

835
00:38:54.775 --> 00:38:56.715
<v Speaker 1>All right, I'm getting in there. So aj,</v>

836
00:38:56.755 --> 00:38:58.475
I wanna be respectful of your time.

837
00:38:58.895 --> 00:39:01.515
Um, this has been so much fun for me. Thank you.

838
00:39:01.815 --> 00:39:05.675
<v Speaker 2>Loving it.</v>
<v Speaker 1>I wanna ask this one last question,</v>

839
00:39:05.675 --> 00:39:07.875
and this, this comes from a place, so obviously,

840
00:39:07.945 --> 00:39:09.875
like I said, you and I are, are getting ready

841
00:39:09.875 --> 00:39:12.155
to launch some kids send 'em to college,

842
00:39:12.775 --> 00:39:14.835
and I'm, I'm in this season right now

843
00:39:14.835 --> 00:39:17.715
because I've had experience in hr, a lot

844
00:39:17.715 --> 00:39:21.355
of my friends are coming to me with concerns and anxiety.

845
00:39:21.415 --> 00:39:24.315
Oh, my kid wants to study music, my kid wants to study this.

846
00:39:24.385 --> 00:39:26.075
It's, it's so impractical.

847
00:39:26.195 --> 00:39:27.875
I, you know, I need them to study business.

848
00:39:27.995 --> 00:39:29.275
I need them to study, you know,

849
00:39:29.275 --> 00:39:31.755
this renaissance poetry, this is crazy .

850
00:39:32.595 --> 00:39:36.915
Um, I have some really strong perspective on that,

851
00:39:36.975 --> 00:39:38.515
but I, I would love to get yours.

852
00:39:38.575 --> 00:39:40.035
So, you know, you and I have talked,

853
00:39:40.195 --> 00:39:42.635
I know you've got three kids, um, you

854
00:39:42.735 --> 00:39:46.075
and your wife have what I can only describe

855
00:39:46.095 --> 00:39:48.915
as some pretty unconventional career paths.

856
00:39:49.175 --> 00:39:51.355
You both do some really interesting things.

857
00:39:52.215 --> 00:39:55.195
And I'm curious, as you think about your kids

858
00:39:55.295 --> 00:39:59.435
as they're growing up and them having watched you, both

859
00:39:59.435 --> 00:40:03.115
of you navigate these very interesting career paths,

860
00:40:03.585 --> 00:40:05.595
what do you hope, what do you hope they've seen?

861
00:40:05.745 --> 00:40:08.715
What do you hope they've taken away from watching the two

862
00:40:08.715 --> 00:40:09.955
of you do what you've done?

863
00:40:10.705 --> 00:40:12.355
<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you for that. First of all.</v>

864
00:40:12.715 --> 00:40:14.835
I do, before we go, I do wanna hear some

865
00:40:14.835 --> 00:40:16.755
of your insights on this question.

866
00:40:17.375 --> 00:40:20.955
Uh, but I will say a couple of things.

867
00:40:21.735 --> 00:40:26.035
One is, yes, my wife, by the way, just for context,

868
00:40:26.895 --> 00:40:30.275
she has a company that puts on scavenger hunts

869
00:40:30.575 --> 00:40:31.635
for team building.

870
00:40:32.175 --> 00:40:34.115
So you, you talked about whimsy

871
00:40:34.175 --> 00:40:36.955
and how whimsy can be helpful in business.

872
00:40:37.055 --> 00:40:40.035
And so that's sort of the, the premise of her.

873
00:40:40.615 --> 00:40:43.355
Uh, they do these scavenger hunts in museums and,

874
00:40:43.855 --> 00:40:48.315
and neighborhoods, uh, where you, you answer fun questions

875
00:40:48.375 --> 00:40:49.475
and it's team building.

876
00:40:50.135 --> 00:40:53.795
But yes, we both have slightly unusual, i i,

877
00:40:53.975 --> 00:40:55.435
we both work very hard.

878
00:40:55.795 --> 00:41:00.555
I mean, I, I am working maybe too much that is, uh,

879
00:41:00.955 --> 00:41:02.195
I don't, but,

880
00:41:02.415 --> 00:41:05.875
but when my kids, I will say when my kids are there

881
00:41:05.895 --> 00:41:08.675
and wanna do something with me, whatever time of day it is,

882
00:41:09.555 --> 00:41:11.795
I put the work away and I focus.

883
00:41:12.295 --> 00:41:16.955
So I do hope that that's a lesson that they take away is

884
00:41:16.955 --> 00:41:20.395
to be fully present in whatever you're doing, whether

885
00:41:20.395 --> 00:41:23.155
that's being fully present while working

886
00:41:23.495 --> 00:41:25.755
or being fully present in your relationships.

887
00:41:26.315 --> 00:41:29.955
I mean, I always, I once read a biography of JFK

888
00:41:30.095 --> 00:41:33.565
and it talked about how, you know, he was president

889
00:41:33.565 --> 00:41:36.965
of the United States, but if a 8-year-old asked him a

890
00:41:37.125 --> 00:41:38.965
question, he would, you know, lean down.

891
00:41:39.025 --> 00:41:40.125
So he was eye level

892
00:41:40.345 --> 00:41:42.885
and really focus on them

893
00:41:43.105 --> 00:41:45.485
as if they were the most important person in the world.

894
00:41:45.905 --> 00:41:47.885
And I lo I mean, if the president

895
00:41:47.885 --> 00:41:50.365
of the United States can do that, then I can do that.

896
00:41:50.625 --> 00:41:54.885
So I love the, I try to set as a model really

897
00:41:55.925 --> 00:41:58.645
focusing, put the phone away, like look them in the eyes

898
00:41:58.945 --> 00:42:01.725
and be focused on your family

899
00:42:01.945 --> 00:42:03.805
or your friends when you're with them,

900
00:42:04.385 --> 00:42:05.525
and be focused on work.

901
00:42:05.525 --> 00:42:07.925
You know, I'm not, don't, I, I I don't really

902
00:42:08.575 --> 00:42:12.525
phone in my work, I, I do pay a lot of attention.

903
00:42:12.865 --> 00:42:15.885
So that might be one big, uh, lesson

904
00:42:16.075 --> 00:42:17.485
that I want to impart to them.

905
00:42:17.485 --> 00:42:19.645
Nice. But I wanna hear your insight.

906
00:42:19.645 --> 00:42:22.125
You said you had strong thoughts on this.

907
00:42:22.765 --> 00:42:24.765
<v Speaker 1>I have thoughts whether or not they're insightful,</v>

908
00:42:25.005 --> 00:42:28.285
I don't know, but I, so you,

909
00:42:28.865 --> 00:42:31.685
you are talking about the importance of being really present

910
00:42:31.825 --> 00:42:33.445
and grounded and listening Well, I think

911
00:42:33.445 --> 00:42:35.165
that's spot on for me.

912
00:42:35.405 --> 00:42:37.845
I think the most important thing when it comes to learning

913
00:42:37.945 --> 00:42:40.405
and education is engagement.

914
00:42:40.785 --> 00:42:42.405
Um, and I tell people all the time,

915
00:42:42.925 --> 00:42:45.005
I do think there are certain career paths.

916
00:42:45.105 --> 00:42:48.925
You know, if you at age 18 know with certainty you want

917
00:42:48.925 --> 00:42:52.725
to be a physician, an architect, like there are certain jobs

918
00:42:52.875 --> 00:42:54.845
that if you know, those are what you want,

919
00:42:55.015 --> 00:42:57.565
there probably is a technical path you should start

920
00:42:57.845 --> 00:42:58.885
pursuing sooner than later.

921
00:42:59.745 --> 00:43:02.365
But I think for most of us, what we study

922
00:43:02.545 --> 00:43:04.525
and what we end up doing professionally

923
00:43:05.215 --> 00:43:06.965
don't necessarily have to relate.

924
00:43:07.065 --> 00:43:09.965
And I personally think that the, the best, you know,

925
00:43:10.025 --> 00:43:12.405
to your point, you said earlier, let's,

926
00:43:12.455 --> 00:43:14.405
let's look at problems as puzzles.

927
00:43:15.045 --> 00:43:18.125
I think the most important skill we can all bring into the

928
00:43:18.125 --> 00:43:20.605
workplace is, you know, being a good thinker.

929
00:43:21.105 --> 00:43:24.565
And so I think if you've taken a course of study

930
00:43:24.595 --> 00:43:26.925
that has really engaged your brain in

931
00:43:27.125 --> 00:43:28.165
whatever it is, I don't care.

932
00:43:28.185 --> 00:43:29.965
It could be drumming or renaissance poetry

933
00:43:30.305 --> 00:43:34.565
or business , if you were engaged, if you cared enough

934
00:43:34.665 --> 00:43:36.645
to learn and think and question

935
00:43:36.985 --> 00:43:39.325
and explore whatever the topic,

936
00:43:40.125 --> 00:43:41.765
I think you're gonna be successful.

937
00:43:42.045 --> 00:43:44.245
I think you will find a way to be successful.

938
00:43:44.385 --> 00:43:46.925
And so that's always my advice to parents

939
00:43:47.065 --> 00:43:49.325
or kids who are asking, study something

940
00:43:49.325 --> 00:43:51.245
that really captivates you

941
00:43:51.345 --> 00:43:53.405
and that's gonna ready you

942
00:43:53.545 --> 00:43:55.205
to do whatever you choose to do someday.

943
00:43:55.755 --> 00:43:57.005
<v Speaker 2>Part, um, that is great.</v>

944
00:43:57.205 --> 00:44:00.845
I mean, they used to do some hand signal in, uh,

945
00:44:00.855 --> 00:44:03.285
elementary school when you agreed with something.

946
00:44:03.505 --> 00:44:04.965
So I can't remember what it was,

947
00:44:05.025 --> 00:44:06.485
but I'm doing that. Whatever.

948
00:44:06.485 --> 00:44:09.045
<v Speaker 1>It's, I'll take it. I'll take your hand signal</v>

949
00:44:09.045 --> 00:44:10.805
note the corner of the screen. Yes, thank you.

950
00:44:11.645 --> 00:44:13.925
<v Speaker 2>A hundred percent. And, uh, thinking</v>

951
00:44:14.605 --> 00:44:18.525
critically I think is the most important skill in business,

952
00:44:19.105 --> 00:44:21.725
and hopefully you can, uh,

953
00:44:22.145 --> 00:44:24.125
and I think there are studies that talk about

954
00:44:24.125 --> 00:44:28.845
how liberal arts is, is actually good for, and I think you

955
00:44:28.845 --> 00:44:33.485
and I talked about at that college entry, cocktail party of,

956
00:44:33.945 --> 00:44:38.045
uh, didn't we talk a little about that book range, uh,

957
00:44:38.345 --> 00:44:41.965
and how we are, I, I at least am a fan of,

958
00:44:42.665 --> 00:44:46.365
of young people trying different areas to see

959
00:44:46.555 --> 00:44:47.725
what resonates with them.

960
00:44:48.465 --> 00:44:50.685
So not being locked into one.

961
00:44:51.685 --> 00:44:53.925
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely. I think we have a lot in common in</v>

962
00:44:53.925 --> 00:44:55.085
how we think about this stuff.

963
00:44:55.925 --> 00:44:58.465
So, aj, before we close, is there anything

964
00:44:58.535 --> 00:45:00.305
that you wanna call our attention to?

965
00:45:00.725 --> 00:45:02.545
Any, any projects of yours?

966
00:45:02.565 --> 00:45:03.945
We, we should be keeping an eye out

967
00:45:03.945 --> 00:45:05.625
for any place you wanna send people

968
00:45:05.765 --> 00:45:06.905
to find out more about you?

969
00:45:07.025 --> 00:45:09.345
<v Speaker 2>I, I guess one that I would,</v>

970
00:45:09.705 --> 00:45:13.945
I would plug is I have a substack called Experimental Living

971
00:45:14.135 --> 00:45:15.385
with AJ Jacobs.

972
00:45:15.765 --> 00:45:17.105
And I am excited about it

973
00:45:17.105 --> 00:45:21.425
because the premise of that is, you know, I, I am,

974
00:45:22.325 --> 00:45:26.065
I'm a writer so I can do something for a year

975
00:45:26.205 --> 00:45:27.585
and write a book about it.

976
00:45:27.845 --> 00:45:29.745
But I realized most people have

977
00:45:30.595 --> 00:45:32.145
lives and they can't do that.

978
00:45:32.365 --> 00:45:34.585
But I'm a fan of small experiments

979
00:45:35.165 --> 00:45:38.545
and even those can change your life in a big way.

980
00:45:39.005 --> 00:45:43.185
So even if it's just like, I'm gonna commit to writing

981
00:45:43.685 --> 00:45:48.185
by hand for 10 minutes a day, that's an experiment

982
00:45:48.215 --> 00:45:49.505
that anyone can do.

983
00:45:49.965 --> 00:45:51.825
And, and it might have big benefits.

984
00:45:51.965 --> 00:45:54.465
It could be I'm not gonna gossip for a week

985
00:45:54.565 --> 00:45:55.745
and see what that's like.

986
00:45:55.965 --> 00:45:58.225
So I'm a big fan of experimenting,

987
00:45:58.225 --> 00:45:59.785
whether it's big experiments

988
00:45:59.785 --> 00:46:00.905
or small experiments,

989
00:46:01.225 --> 00:46:04.745
I just think it keeps your brain fresh, it keeps life fresh,

990
00:46:05.285 --> 00:46:08.705
and it in the end, uh, hopefully it improves your life.

991
00:46:09.175 --> 00:46:11.825
<v Speaker 1>Amazing. Aj, thank you so much</v>

992
00:46:11.925 --> 00:46:13.225
for spending this time with me.

993
00:46:13.465 --> 00:46:15.145
I have enjoyed every minute of it.

994
00:46:15.965 --> 00:46:18.745
<v Speaker 2>Me too. And I was excited to,</v>

995
00:46:19.505 --> 00:46:23.185
'cause I do like to, you know, listen to the podcast

996
00:46:23.415 --> 00:46:26.705
that I'm on and this was a joy to listen to.

997
00:46:26.785 --> 00:46:28.145
I learned so much, like I say.

998
00:46:28.145 --> 00:46:31.385
And so I hope at the end that I've accomplished that.

999
00:46:31.615 --> 00:46:34.665
Hopefully you listeners have found a couple

1000
00:46:34.685 --> 00:46:36.985
of actual takeaways from this.

1001
00:46:37.525 --> 00:46:40.065
If not, you can email me and complain,

1002
00:46:40.405 --> 00:46:42.345
but I tried. Just know that I

1003
00:46:42.345 --> 00:46:43.345
tried
<v Speaker 1>.</v>

1004
00:46:44.125 --> 00:46:46.225
It was amazing. Thank you, aj.

1005
00:46:46.595 --> 00:46:50.045
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Rachel.</v>
<v Speaker 1>I hope you enjoyed my conversation</v>

1006
00:46:50.075 --> 00:46:51.165
with AJ Jacobs.

1007
00:46:51.385 --> 00:46:53.245
You can learn more about him, his work,

1008
00:46:53.425 --> 00:46:55.485
his books@ajjacobs.com

1009
00:46:55.665 --> 00:46:57.645
or check out his podcast, the Puzzler,

1010
00:46:57.965 --> 00:46:59.085
wherever you get your podcasts.

1011
00:46:59.475 --> 00:47:01.565
It's short, it's quick, it's fun.

1012
00:47:02.145 --> 00:47:04.245
And in the spirit of following curiosity,

1013
00:47:05.025 --> 00:47:06.885
I'm curious about what you think of the show.

1014
00:47:07.305 --> 00:47:08.605
So please leave a rating

1015
00:47:08.605 --> 00:47:10.565
or review in your podcast app for the show.

1016
00:47:11.065 --> 00:47:13.685
And if you'd like to connect one-on-one, even just to hit me

1017
00:47:13.685 --> 00:47:16.085
with a question, reach out anytime at

1018
00:47:16.085 --> 00:47:18.165
rachel@leadabovenoise.com.

1019
00:47:18.795 --> 00:47:20.725
Join me next week for another great episode.

1020
00:47:21.055 --> 00:47:24.245
Until then, visit my website, lead above noise.com.

1021
00:47:24.665 --> 00:47:26.765
If your workplace could use an activation boost,

1022
00:47:26.795 --> 00:47:29.445
whether it's a bootcamp, a keynote, a pulse check,

1023
00:47:29.625 --> 00:47:32.925
you choose, you can follow Modern Mentor on Apple Podcasts,

1024
00:47:32.955 --> 00:47:35.365
Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

1025
00:47:35.785 --> 00:47:38.525
Thanks so much for listening and have a successful week.

1026
00:47:38.905 --> 00:47:41.085
Modern Mentor is a quick and Dirty Tips podcast.

1027
00:47:41.675 --> 00:47:43.405
It's audio engineered by Dan Fand.

1028
00:47:43.905 --> 00:47:46.245
Our director of podcasts is Brandon Getches.

1029
00:47:46.745 --> 00:47:49.285
Our podcast and advertising operations specialist

1030
00:47:49.345 --> 00:47:50.525
is Morgan Christensen.

1031
00:47:50.905 --> 00:47:53.445
Our digital operations specialist is Holly Hutchings.

1032
00:47:53.825 --> 00:47:56.485
Our marketing and publicity associate is Davina Tomlin,

1033
00:47:56.625 --> 00:47:58.805
and our marketing contractor is Nathaniel Hoops.